Portuguese Civ

[Serigado]

seems impossible how americans actually appear as a civ... what have they done to deserve it? how about the portuguese? how about spanish?

[John Biles]

Well, if the game was restricted to only civilizations which existed at the dawn of history, many of the civilizations would have to go. If it was restricted to civilizations which existed across the entire span of history in the game, and participated at each stage, everyone but China would have to go. While American civilization is only a few centuries old, we've had more impact in those few centuries than many of these civilizations had in their entire existence.

That said, I'd be interested to see Spanish and Portuguese civilizations in the game, given both nations also had a strong influence on much of the world in the 15th-17th centuries.

I'd also like to see some African civilizations other than the Zulus, as they are not archetypical of African civilization as a whole. (I don't count Egypt, because except for brief periods of Nubian domination, Egypt has always been more strongly bound to Europe and the Middle East than to Africa).

[Ecowiz Returns]

Serigado:

You will see your question discussed again and again in these forums (... which, in turn is a sign that people keep disagreing ).

But, although there is the "History driven" reason that would advise the non introduction of the "Americans", there are "tones" of reasons why they should appear, all of them presented in previous threads.

But in what concerns Portugal and Spain you're right, IMO.
The point, again would be hystorical accuracy. If in the XV and XVI centuries, Portugal and Spain didn't venture in their Exploration and Trade/Colonization endeavours, World History would be much different (perhaps we wouldn't have an American "Civilization" today, or even Civilization - the game - for that matter!).

John Biles:
You're right, other non-European Civilizations would equally be interesting. Too bad Africa isn't a good enough market for computer games. Perhaps if it were, we would also know a lot more about African Civilizations other than the Zulu or the Egiptian. The same goes for Asian Civs, of course.

[Harovan]

This old "nation vs civilization" discussion again...

If we are talking about civilizations, neither the Portugese and Spain, nor the English, French, Germans and Russians should be included in the game. There were a few real civilizations in ancient Europe. The Romans and Greeks of course (which were, culturally, basically the same), the Celts, Vikings (Normans, Gauls), Germanics and Slavs. Out of those civilizations, the modern nations were formed. England is a mix of Germanic tribes (Angle and Saxon) and Celts, with Norman influence. France is pure Germanic, the Normans (Asterix and Obelix ) don't play a big role, Germany is basically Germanic with a significant Slavic influence, Russia is Slavic with Germanic (and other) influence. I don't know much about Spanish and Portugese history, but it ought to be similar.

EDIT: All mentioned nations have a huge Roman influence, in fact our entire occidental culture is based on the Roman (which is based on the Greek ).

[Jay Bee]

Sir Ralph, France pure Germanic??? What have you been smoking man? For starters, Asterix and Obelix are not Normans but Celts, Gauls to be more precise. France is waaaay more Latin than Germanic, just like Spain, Portugal and Italy. Let me quote a phrase by Albert Camus, a French Nobel Laureate. I assume you know who he was and what he wrote: "One day the borders between Portugal and Spain, Spain and France, France and Italy will disappear as these nations are all sons of the same mother". The Latin nations of Europe form a civilization that is clearly unique and different from the rest.

[Giovanni August]

Yeah!
Jay Bee said perfectly.
I also think that Spain and Portugal and Southern Italy has a bit of Arabic influence due to the Arab dominations of this areas for long time.
While Northern Italy has more of a Germanic influence because The Austro-Hungarian dominated us for loooong time.
France too has a bit of Germanic influence because the Franks were a germanic tribe.
But in all those countries you can very strongly see the Latin influence over all.

Saluti

PS:
Real Madrid GRRRRRR

[Harovan]

JayBee: With the Gauls being Celts you are of course right, I mixed things up with the Vikings (Normans), who also left their traces in France (-> Normandie). Btw, I quit smoking 2 years ago.

Giovanni: While you first protested, you finally admitted, that the Italians are a mix of the initial Latin (Roman) population with all their conquerors in the 4th-5th century. Or where do you thing did all the Vistogoths, Lombards and Vandals end, who came into the Italian peninsula, fleeing from the Huns? Did they get slaughtered? Or did they rather get assimilated?

[Jay Bee]

Sir Ralph: I quit five years ago, but sometimes I miss it a lot

Giovanni: Juventus are a fine team too

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Giovanni: While you first protested, you finally admitted, that the Italians are a mix of the initial Latin (Roman) population with all their conquerors in the 4th-5th century. Or where do you thing did all the Vistogoths, Lombards and Vandals end, who came into the Italian peninsula, fleeing from the Huns? Did they get slaughtered? Or did they rather get assimilated?

The Visigoths ended up in Spain, the Vandals in North Africa. The Lombards in Lombardy- where else?

The point is, the vigorous Latin culture assimilated the invaders. Who could resist the Aeneid, balsamic vinegar, Parma ham and manchego and chorizo- and Portuguese custard tarts, of course.

[Harovan]

molly bloom: The Vandals conquered the Roman province in N Africa in the early 5th century. In the mid of 5th century, they took Rome and destroyed it (that made their horrible reputation, till these days). They stayed in Italy a few dozen years and were then defeated. A part of them was assimilated, a part went back to N Africa and was defeated again in the 6th century, where they practically ceased to exist.

With the assimilation you are right and just this was my point too. The former Roman people mixed with the nations they conquered, and with those who conquered them, but their culture always stayed Roman. Similar with the Mongols, who conquered China.

But (back on topic) far from ethnic discussions, what was my point from the beginning? It's useless to demand Spanish, Portugese, Polish, Austrian, Hungarian and similar Civilizations. Even the established English, French, Germans and Russians are nations, not civilizations and, if we are pedantic, should not been included, but rather the Celts, Vikings, Germanics, Slavs, Romans, Greeks etc. (although the difference between the latter 2 is marginal low)

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
England is a mix of Germanic tribes (Angle and Saxon) and Celts, with Norman influence.

Why do people always insist on ignoring the Jutes?

[Harovan]

Good point , may be because anglesaxon sounds cool and anglesaxonjutish crappy?

[dunk]

New vs Old civs

If off-shoot civs like the Americans can't be in the game, then no one except the original African tribes of Homo Erectus should be in the game.

Anyhoo, I disagree with adding another European civ into the game. I think the game should be more diverse. I mean, if we're going to add the Portugese, then why not the Dutch, Austrians, Poles, Huns, Ukrainians, Belgians, Fins, Swedes, Norwegians, Lichenstienians, Lithuanians (the last European nation to convert to Christianity... an accomplishment in itself), Belarussians, Latvians, Scottish, Welsh, Irish... the list goes on.

Why not add civs like the Inca? The Aboriginies? The Amazons (made up, I know)? The Inuit? The Vietnamese (or Siamese)? The Polyponesians? The Nubians? The Ethiopians?

My opinion is that there should be some choices so that there is no European nation on the map while playing with more than 5 civs.

[dunk]

Angles... Germanic tribe
Saxons... Germanic tribe
Jutes... Germanic tribe
Normans... Germanic tribe... yes, they are.
Franks... Germanic tribe

France and England are full of Germans.

[dunk]

Oh yeah...

Vikings... Germanic tribe.

Gauls... slaughtered by the Romans... what was his name? Julius Caesar.