Portuguese Civ

[Jay Bee]

Sargon, please think right. How do you think an empire can be created and, more importantly, sustained without a strong military? How many examples can you name? When was America discovered? When did the European powers start grabbing chunks of land in the Americas? Why? Never heard of the Italian campaigns? St. Quentin? Lepanto? Man, oh man... you can argue about so many things, but to deny that the Spanish empire was the world power during the XVI c and part of the XVII is utter ignorance. Precisely it was the 30-years that put an end to Spanish preeminence in the battlefield. You've got to go earlier than that. BTW, the Tercios never fought at home. That comment implies that your knowledge on the subject is still minimal.

The best books on this era are written in English by English authors, so don't tell me you can't find anything in that language. Look for people like Henry Kamen or John Elliott. I am asking you to go to a library. The net is not the best place to look for accurate info. I don't know about German, but the best books I have read about the Spanish Middle Ages are from German authors. It would be shocking to learn that German historians do not care about the Habsburg family. Quite unbelievable, to be honest.

As to your comments about the Armada... I am so tired of people distorting the whole affair that I was going to let that go, but a friend of mine provided me with this link:

http://www.bezzer.co.uk/armada/reason.htm

It's not a scholar link and as I pointed out above the net is not the best place to look for accurate info. The point is the link is from a British source and that's what makes it valuable in this particular regard. In general, the page is quite interesting.

[kIndal]

Originally posted by sargon2
Tell me what wars were won by the Spanish empire in europe

Catholic Monarc:
-War of Granada (1492)(probably bigger and stronger that some German States of this era thanks to turkish and berbers helps).
-Conquer of North African cities, Melilla (1497), Oran (1509), Mers-el-Kebir (1505) and stablicing protectorated in Bougie, Tripoli and Argel (well it isnt Europe but its near)
-War of Naples agaisnt France, thanks to the battles of Cerignola and Garellano (1503) Naples formed part of Spain.
-War of Navarre (1512) against Naverre and France, Spain conquered Navarre and added it to Spain.

Charles I of Spain, V of HRE:

-War of Castilian Comoners (1519-1521)
-Revolt of Germanias of Valencia (1520-1523) (these two ones were civil wars so won by spanish anyway)
-Four wars between Charles and Francis I of France (1521-1544)
-The conquer of Tunis (1535)

I havent added Charles wars in Germany because it wasnt Spanish wars, although, a lot of imperial troops, generals and money were Spanish.

Philip II

-Battle of Lepanto against Ottomans (1571)
-Two wars of Granada against moriscos, turkish and berbers.
-Campaigns of Alba and Farnesio in Netherlands
-Wars of religion of France.
-Adding of Portugal (1581) to Spain.

Philip III

It was a peaceful reign where was signed peace with Netherlands, England or France. So there were no wars.

Philip IV

well, here the main conflict was the 30 years war.
-First campaigns against Netherlands with examples as conquers of Breda of Bergen op Zoom.
-War of MAntua agaisnt France.
-Conquer of Palatinate by Spinola.
-Habsburg victories in White Mountain, Nordlingen, Fuenterrabia.
-Sufocating of revolts of Catalonia, Naples or Sicily.

But this war suppose the lost of being the world Superpower for Spain. In fact, in this war was the first time that Spanish Tercios was defeated in a battlefield by other army, Rocroi, against French, not against Gustavus Adolphus as sargon2 had said, it isnt the same defeat Spanish troops or regimients that defeat the Spanish army. At same it isnt the same defeat a army with English mercenaries or aliies that defeat english army.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Sorry kindal, but I have to correct you in one small point:

Phillipe II:
The adding of Portugal was done through succession right and without any great battle.
You can't really talk of a war here.

As for sargo:
I'm sorry that, while your history books talk about the art and scientific development in the Italian Cities it simply overlooks the amazing exploration efforts done by both Portuguese and Spanish in those same years. which indeed is odd since most of that development was only possible because of the richess they brought to Europe.

You should note that, prior to the discouvery of the Cape Route to India, all trade with Asia was done through Arab routes. The trade and military actions of the Portuguese in the Indic Ocean simply deprived the Arabs of their previleged position. Portugal was the first European Nation to have a vice-roy in India and had one for almost 400 years. While they were there, they closed all Arab trade routes from either the Red Sea or Ormuz "Gulf", making Portugal to ONLY European direct trader of Indian products. Meanwhile, no other European nation made an exploration effort, for at least another 100 years. That with the tiny home territory Portugal still has today! If not with the strenght of numbers, something else must have allowed the Portuguese to achieve that.

You should also note that in those days Portugal and Spain had the nerve to split the Word in two, among both nations. I don't see how they were to be allowed to do that if they weren't regarded as significant powers.

[Shaka Naldur]

sargon2,

read a history book.

[jasev]

Sargon2, your knowledge of Europan History is really pathetic.

got a polish friend he is also convinced that his country got a powerfull overwhelming history equal to the French or German

He's right. Poland was never a world power but a big regional power; located between the Teutonic Knights (Germans) and the Principate of Moscow (Russians), they achieved a lot of victories against both of them. Never heard about Ladislas Jagellón? During his reign, Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lituania were united, becoming one of the biggest european powers. They never fought against french, but I think the military powers at that time could be similar.
And a country that is ubicated between Russians and Germans and achieved to survive shouldn't be despised.

I was going to argue with you about your opinions concerning spanish history, but I think Jay Bee did it quite good.

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by sargon2
PS: it's not that easy to get something about the Tercios in general in Englisch or German. Spanish keeps closed to. Do u know a good link in English where an article is about them.

Here you have a link so you can learn about the Tercios:

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

Poland has a great empire in the middle ages and these is a fact that you can learn in any book of medieval history.

If you want I can search you a link...

[Giovanni August]

I agree with the spanish supporters!

Spain was for a while the major power of Europe and they reached their golden age probably in the late 1500's. They had lots of the Americas beside the Brazilian coast that was portuguese, all of South Italy, thay fought a war against France for that, for some times thay had in their hand also Northern Italian cities like Milano (Milan), that were ruled by what in Italy we called "vicere" that means "vice-king" and the king they refer to is the Spanish king.

And last but not least they have the most amazing Soccer teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia

Saluti

[sargon2]

What makes a superpower of its time. Its not if u have defeated some native primitiv people in America or Africa. The point of proving is europe at least until the 19th Cent. A superpower dominates its neighbouring countries. Its is permanently expanding from its corelands. The Problem of your spanisch empire is that it was in long periods of its best times in personalunion of the habsburgians who were German leading state at that time. So they took spanish and other forces for all of their interests. That already makes in long periods a single Spanisch Civ impossible, for what is its capital until 1564 Vienna . So its hard to reveal the pure spanish effords. They were only a helping reservoir. But 1564 a single spanish history started. They got by heritage Spain, parts of the Netherlands and some isolated little-states in Italy. Nothing conquered. But they got a powerfull base. In endless struggles against France and the Spanish Netherlandian Freedomfighters they spent their gold/silver. May be they got some successes agaist the Maures and France. But 1580/1 they lost the Spanish Netherlands and got therefor Portugal which they lost 1640 again. From 1598 on there was a decline of power. Against the uprising French power they became ressesiv. From 1700 on Spain became the playball and battlefield of foreign nations and interests. That makes from 1564 to 1700 136 years of independent power. And what were the effords. They lost the Spanish Netherlands, got and lost Portugal, got and lost areas betwenn itself and France. OK in Northafrica and the western Mediterrainian they were dominating (few european rivals). But already 1581 (Armada-case) they lost their seapower state. Everybody identifies the colonial empire of Spain with its superpower image, but there were only 17 years of a independent spanish seapower.
I posted mainly on 4 periods of Spanish History:

1. : some befor 1492-1512: its an independent period when it consolidated its power, reconquered its country and built up its colonies
2.: 1512-1564: Spain is one of the up to 4-5 crownlands of the Germany-based Habsburgians. Its object not subject.
3.: 1564-1700:a spanish line of the Habsburgians became independent, they brought more with them then Spain ever got.
After some successes in the beginning they lost more and more of its substance. Lost the Spanish Netherlans and lost its position against France.
4.: 1700- : Spain again becomes a playball and Battlefield of foreign interests.

A short time of consolidation in its own country. Later on some gains and many losts. And again and again it became an object. That is an interesting meaningfull nation. But no superpower. It just didn't dominate europe. France, Germany, Babylonia, USA, Iroqois, Russia and all other Civilization-players did dominate its continent in different times.

@jasev: every country got its better times. Poland did never defeat a German country only a group of plundering and conquering holy Knights mainly Germans but from all over europe called the German Order. That guyes conquered the ancient Prussia, a baltic people, before it got heired to the Brandenburgians. Later on they tyrranized Poland and Lituania. That went together under lituanian leadership and drove that order more and more back until that accepted the polish royal sovereignity. Besides they got some success in campaigns against Russia and defending wars against the Mongolians and Ottomans. But if u compare that to the complex and thrilling history of France and Germany than u got no knowledge of european history through all ages.

Read a history book. No u should read.
Thats silly folks.
I'm not dogmatic. Just give me Facts. The cultural point is a good one. Spain got an extraordinary influence on Barok.

[Jay Bee]

Sargon, you are making a big fool of yourself here. It's okay to ignore things, it's not so to be selfish, derogatory and arrogant. Continue this way and you're gonna make it into many ignore lists. Good nite sire.

[sargon2]

On the colonial point again. If spain will ever dominating by 50% the latin-american market of today, than they were an economical superpower. But 16th Cent. latinamerica was a poor deserted land of plantages and slavlabour, that was explored and brought its resources to Spain. No compare to India and China of that days. Its like u said Russia is important becaus of Siberia and its resources - that take such a huge part of your worldmap, that is just quantity not quality- but Russia is that important because of its relativly smal european part, the big trained population and its military that dominated the last more than hundred years east europe and mutch more.

[sargon2]

Don't get me wrong I give nothing on historical reputation. I can't make an intelecual link to people that think they were better than others because of the history of their country. Only today counts and what u do of your life.
When I spoke on Poland as not so dominating in history it is not meanly meant. They concentrated on themselves and did less harm on other people. That the Italian soldiers were such lousy in WWII is no bad grade, occupied land doesn't make happier, but I know that many Italians are now angry about me because of their machisme.
My country got highest successes and deepest defeats. So what.
That to beeing selfish and arrogant.
About derogatory is difficult. To me Spain didn't play such an important role, so I minimize their role by arguments is that already derogativ. i'm still not against Spain, its one of the best, but that is my result.

My slogan is just funny. Its from a national-critical band, that is kidding Germans that feel superior. But nevertheless I think Germany is one of the best, either.

[Waku]

"Madrid is the queen of parliaments, all the world serves her and she serves nobody"

And her haughtines was just what made her fall. To deny The History will only lead others to make the same mistake.

[sargon2]

That's right about history.

And all serve spanish queens

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by sargon2
Don't get me wrong I give nothing on historical reutation. I can't make an intelecual link to people that think they were better than others because of the history of their country. Only today counts and what u do of your life.
When I spoke on Poland as not so dominating in history it is not meanly meant. They concentrated on themselves and did less harm on other people. That the Italian soldiers were such lousy in WWII is no bad grade, occupied land doesn't make happier, but I know that many Italians are now angry about me because of their machisme.
My country got highest successes and deepest defeats. So what.
That to beeing selfish and arrogant.
About derogatory is difficult. To me Spain didn't play such an important role, so I minimize their role by arguments is that already derogativ. i'm still not against Spain, its one of the best, but that is my result.

My slogan is just funny. Its from a national-critical band, that is kidding Germans that feel superior. But nevertheless I think Germany is one of the best, either.

did we say that we are superior to other people because of the history of our country?
because some italian are mad with the germans wasn´t spain a major power??

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by sargon2
That the Italian soldiers were such lousy in WWII is no bad grade, occupied land doesn't make happier, but I know that many Italians are now angry about me because of their machisme.
My country got highest successes and deepest defeats. So what.
That to beeing selfish and arrogant.

Actually i can only agree on that. We didn't fought a good war, our military was not (and still is not) strong enough to defend our own country, we surely couldn't conquer others (read: Greece)!
Some Italians may be angry with you if you say that, because we don't really like to speak about that period of our history.
We were probably more of a weight for Nazi Germany, cause the Germans had to send their troops all around in the North Africans Italian colonies, Greece and wherever Mussolini was attacking.
It is just a low point in our history.... Italians are not soldiers and I'm happy with that

Saluti