Stop the America-bashing!

[Spiffor]

Maybe another reason of antiamericanism comes from the incredible support the Americans show in their country and their identity, the President being a symbol of identity. Sure, not all Americans follow blindly a national pride and a worshipping of their Pres., but that's the image America gives abroad.
Two months after Sept. 11, I heard 90 % of the Americans supported their Pres, it reminded me the scores of Stalin in the "elections" of USSR. I read a newspaper called US news and World Report, whose message basically was that USA was great, had no flaws (at least no flaws were pointed out), and every Pres it had was great and faced history as best as he could do. Such a publication is unthinkable in Europe, where Europeans do struggle vividly against their government when it acts stupidly (for example, the general strike in Italia). A publication like US News reminds me of absurd dictatorships of Africa, when the building up of a national identity is an emergency, even if this identity must be utterly brain-washed.
So, not only the US government is guilty for the bad image of America abroad, but the Americans are too, when they don't show they criticize the stupidity of their governments (which sometimes happened in the US as in every country)

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Maybe another reason of antiamericanism comes from the incredible support the Americans show in their country and their identity, the President being a symbol of identity. Sure, not all Americans follow blindly a national pride and a worshipping of their Pres., but that's the image America gives abroad.
Two months after Sept. 11, I heard 90 % of the Americans supported their Pres, it reminded me the scores of Stalin in the "elections" of USSR. I read a newspaper called US news and World Report, whose message basically was that USA was great, had no flaws (at least no flaws were pointed out), and every Pres it had was great and faced history as best as he could do. Such a publication is unthinkable in Europe, where Europeans do struggle vividly against their government when it acts stupidly (for example, the general strike in Italia). A publication like US News reminds me of absurd dictatorships of Africa, when the building up of a national identity is an emergency, even if this identity must be utterly brain-washed.
So, not only the US government is guilty for the bad image of America abroad, but the Americans are too, when they don't show they criticize the stupidity of their governments (which sometimes happened in the US as in every country)

You must be joking! To suggest that American (and British) support for the presidents actions against the terrorists (so far) is similar to Stalins machinizations is absurd.

This is not a publicity stunt or about image. Not all, but a huge majority of Americans feel that we are at war. Maybe that hasnt sunk in over there, I dont know. I wonder if you understand what that means here? The last time Americans felt this way was a little thing called Pearl Harbor. I believe that if there was clear evidence that Iraq (for example) could be tied to the terrorist actions that Bagdhad would be glowing right now (with the full support of the American people). America is at war, we support the president in the prosecution of that war.

You read an article in US news and World Report and believe that Americans dont criticize their government. I suggest you read other material then. Some europeans constantly wring their hands over the negative effects of american culture. I suggest you take advantage of its presence and you'll see that Americans constantly ***** about their goverment.

[Spiffor]

I'm not saying that American enthusiasm for their Pres and Stalist machinizations are the same. I'm saying that an immense support for an individual, consented or not, is something dangerous.
I know pretty well that Americans criticize their government, as any other people in democracies do. But I had to come on 'Poly to witness this from my very eyes. I was talking about the image Americans give of themselves abroad, even if the image is different from their true character.
About supporting Bush as the country is at war : I understand the President gets supported when war comes. But I still think such a huge enthusiasm is too much and hurts the judgment. Bush is not that great, he's trying to settle old scores using the false reason of terrorism to get some rebellious countries in line (I mean, the countries which refuse to enter the New World Order, there were even hesitations about including Cuba in the Axis of Evil), he's using the war to hide his responsibility about environment (Kyoto) and about economy (raised state expanses to support growth, obstacles to trade of steel, while the administration officially supports free trade) etc. I know many Americans know that, and know much more about Bush than I do, but once again, the image of the Americans united behind this arrogant redneck is bad for the image of the US abroad, and feeds antiamericanism.

What puzzles me in "US News and World report" is that it's not about a single article, but about the whole newspaper, every week, which explains to the world how great America is. You'd say "it's one Paper and we have plenty, most of them are not dumb", and you'll be right. But US News is one of the few American papers we have in my university's library. Plus, the very existence of this Newspaper, and its spreading abroad should ashame a modern Democracy such as the US. But instead, it simply fits with its image. Again, with such a press, Americans tend to be percieved as arrogant people who brag without nuance on their greatness.
I'm not saying every American is like that. I'm saying such Americans are noisy and pretty numerous, and they are much more seen that reasonable ones (who are probably even more numerous).

[CRAZY]

Hey spence you are starting to sound like CNN! You must watch it alot or something! Your almost hilarious to listen to! Its the same thing you would hear if you listened to CNN for more then 5 min!!

Your impossible to explain anything to. Maybe Dubya is your uncle or something and thats why you are taking it personal .. other then that you puzzle me! People continue to explain and you continue to spew the same american aggorance that sterotypes people from your country. People as yourself is what gives americans a bad image.

Gunn ho, your new name is now CNN! Stay tuned to this board for any developing story, brought to you by spence!

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I'm not saying that American enthusiasm for their Pres and Stalist machinizations are the same. I'm saying that an immense support for an individual, consented or not, is something dangerous.

I agree that nationalistic tendencies can be dangerous.

I know pretty well that Americans criticize their government, as any other people in democracies do. But I had to come on 'Poly to witness this from my very eyes. I was talking about the image Americans give of themselves abroad, even if the image is different from their true character.

If you're speaking of the American belief that they are always right I would agree that they do. But then I have seen exactly the same trait in many Dutch, German, and French people I know (drives me crazy).

As for the trade issues, I said before I agree with some and disagree with others. I dont agree that Bush is hiding behind the war rather than deal with them though. Again I urge you to look beyond the rhetoric, America IS pissed-off with the terrorists and anybody who supports them!

What puzzles me in "US News and World report" is that it's not about a single article, but about the whole newspaper, every week, which explains to the world how great America is. You'd say "it's one Paper and we have plenty, most of them are not dumb", and you'll be right. But US News is one of the few American papers we have in my university's library. Plus, the very existence of this Newspaper, and its spreading abroad should ashame a modern Democracy such as the US. But instead, it simply fits with its image. Again, with such a press, Americans tend to be percieved as arrogant people who brag without nuance on their greatness.

I dont read that paper but I can guess from your comments that it is probably a "right-wing" paper. As I'm sure you know, with all newsmedia or historical essays you have to understand the perspective of those who have written it.

I believe I understand what you're saying though. Having lived quite a few years in different parts of Europe I know that the American perception of Europeans as snobbish, beret-wearing pseudo-intellectuals is false. Its just an image .

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by CRAZY
Hey spence you are starting to sound like CNN! You must watch it alot or something! Your almost hilarious to listen to! Its the same thing you would hear if you listened to CNN for more then 5 min!!

Your impossible to explain anything to. Maybe Dubya is your uncle or something and thats why you are taking it personal .. other then that you puzzle me! People continue to explain and you continue to spew the same american aggorance that sterotypes people from your country. People as yourself is what gives americans a bad image.

Gunn ho, your new name is now CNN! Stay tuned to this board for any developing story, brought to you by spence!

Getting cranky junior. It must be past your bedtime.

Nighty-night now. We'll leave a light on for ya!

[Serb]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Having lived quite a few years in different parts of Europe I know that the American perception of Europeans as snobbish, beret-wearing pseudo-intellectuals is false. Its just an image .

[Beren]

Originally posted by CRAZY
Who died when USA invaded afganistan looking for terriosts? I bet a few more innocent people then died in the US. But they are the terrorists.

I already posted it on this thread, but I'll refresh you memory.

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm

http://www.cursor.org/stories/casualty_count.htm

These links will show a scientific report, what tells you that 3767 civilians are proved to be killed by American bombs. Indirect victims and uncheckable information was not counted.

[siredgar]

SpencerH,

I find your comments a bit rude and entirely inappropriate. I suggest sticking to the facts rather than hurling personal insults. It's distasteful and shows that you lack respect for others, particularly those you do not even know. Does it make you feel better about yourself to disparage other people with your remarkably unclever posts?

For example, you have made sarcastic, snide remarks about other posters' age, education level, and knowledge of history without hesitation or sufficient thought. And yet, it is apparent that you yourself lack the maturity to engage in a discussion without belittling other people and actively "push" out misinformation (see U.S. oil dependence).

By the way, what are you trying to prove by mentioning twice that you lived in Europe?

Sir Edgar

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by siredgar
SpencerH,

I find your comments a bit rude and entirely inappropriate. I suggest sticking to the facts rather than hurling personal insults. It's distasteful and shows that you lack respect for others, particularly those you do not even know. Does it make you feel better about yourself to disparage other people with your remarkably unclever posts?

For example, you have made sarcastic, snide remarks about other posters' age, education level, and knowledge of history without hesitation or sufficient thought. And yet, it is apparent that you yourself lack the maturity to engage in a discussion without belittling other people and actively "push" out misinformation (see U.S. oil dependence).

By the way, what are you trying to prove by mentioning twice that you lived in Europe?

Sir Edgar

Well I am crushed! I noticed you didnt comment on the post to which I was answering. Is that because it matches your own political "bent".

I would think its obvious, but maybe not to all. Its all too easy for some to blather on about things they know nothing about. My comments on where I have lived are merely to give perspective to my comments.


BTW spiffor

I hope you understand my little jest was not aimed at you in any way. It was merely an illustration.

[CRAZY]

The US just killed 4 canadians with " one or two 500 pound bombs"!!!


I heard it on my way to work this morning. Everyone on the bus was flipping out. Then when I got here to work everyone hear was talking about it. I wonder what this iwll mean for Canada's role in the war.

Just goes to show the US public is not the only short sighted bunch. Canadians in general supported that we send over a 1000 troops to follow the all might god DUBYA and now someone dies. REally and honestly its a sad situation but what did they expect?

As far as spence.. well I suppose I started it, so I take equal blame but he was starting to sound like a comercial. I have a nice government job and an university edu so I am not bothered by his comments.

As Dubya would say.. God Bless... my condolcences for those canadian soldiers who died.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Beren


I already posted it on this thread, but I'll refresh you memory.

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm

http://www.cursor.org/stories/casualty_count.htm

These links will show a scientific report, what tells you that 3767 civilians are proved to be killed by American bombs. Indirect victims and uncheckable information was not counted.

Beren

You've cited one source (for which I congratulate you (no sarcasm)) for your viewpoint. IF such numbers are accurate, I would agree that the civilian casualties from American bombing are too high. But let me make a few comments:

This is not a scientific report. I'm a scientist, thats not science.
The report makes no distinction between civilians and for example Taliban or Al queda forces. Since they dont wear uniforms they could easily be counted as "civilians".
Given the large number of reporters from around the world that are present in Afghanistan, wouldnt you think that someone else would have reported this story. Given its potential significance it would be repeated ad infinitum by many news agencies. If there were only american reporters in Afghanistan you might make the claim that they're part of a coverup. But that is not the case.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by CRAZY
The US just killed 4 canadians with " one or two 500 pound bombs"!!!

I heard it on my way to work this morning. Everyone on the bus was flipping out. Then when I got here to work everyone hear was talking about it. I wonder what this iwll mean for Canada's role in the war.

I hope it will have no effect. Dying is a risk all soldiers take.

So that you understand my perspective, its not impossible that I know some of those guys.

[CRAZY]

spence don't tell me that you deny global warming too! Those numbers are likley very low since in Afgan they don't any agencies that could be responsible for body counts. Sure there is the red cross and other international agencies but none that could handle such a job properly. They are more worried about the people that still living then those who have died.

Don't kid yourself many many many afgan civilian casualities have died in this war. This is why people here are getting upset with you inparticular. People can have views about things and I maybe wrong with some of my opinions as well as others but you...

you continually question common sense and would say black was white if it suited you. your reason for this? I am not so sure. Reporters in this war were strickly told when and where they could go therefore the infromation that was given to the public strickly controled as well.

Sometimes people can say yes maybe you are right. that is the point of disccusion.

[SpencerH]

There is evidence that the earth is warming. Whether suh warming is caused by pollution is unknown. There are and always have been (as far as I can tell) a lot of "doomsday scientists" who's hypotheses attract a lot of attention from the press and the uninformed public. Global warming is one of these. Are you aware for example that the models for global warming do not include clouds! Hows about the fact that one (1) hurricane releases as much CO2 into the atmosphere from the oceans as all of the output from the USA in one year (published in the journal Nature). Where did the scientists go who predicted that greenhouse gases would cause an ice-age (this hypothesis was as popular as global warming in the 70's).

Does this mean it wouldnt be prudent to reduce air pollution? NO.

Does this mean we should dismantle the worlds economy because "the sky is falling"? NO

I'm not kidding myself about civilian casualties. I question the Pentagons numbers, and I certainly question the numbers posted on one web page by a a professor of economics and womens studies at the University of New Hampshire. In my experience such numbers are suspect. You say that "none could handle the job properly" with regard to the body counts. Well if thats true, all numbers are suspect.

Afghanistan is not the gulf war. While it doesnt look like reporters have the access they had in Vietnam it is not true that

Reporters in this war were strickly told when and where they could go therefore the infromation that was given to the public strickly controled as well

.
You should note that in more than one instance of unusual numbers of civilian casulties were quickly reported by the press.

As for my "lack of common sense". I find that this is an argument often used by people without facts to back them up.