Stop the America-bashing!

[Serb]

Originally posted by easthaven
Ok, I agree the US's foreign policy ain't that great and is far from perfect. If it was up to me I'd bring many of our soldiers back home instead of having them spread out all over the world acting as police officers. But the US does do good things, I mean you can't say America is all that bad. No their not perfect, but America has done some good things in the past and present.

Agreed.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Arrian
One of the reasons, in my opinion, for much of the anti-USA feeling in the world is the "holier than thou" attitude our government takes. The "Axis of Evil" line is a perfect example of this. Our leaders often talk as if the USA is perfect, while it is patently obvious that it's not. That pisses people off - myself included - because nobody likes a hypocrit. The rhetoric fools no one.

The tragic part, in my view, is that there are a lot of wonderful things about the USA, and we have some truly great principles... which the powerhungry, myopic morons that run the place constantly ignore. And the vast majority of Americans are not only ignorant of the world, but of their own country and its leaders. Our politicians get away with all sorts of things because no one cares enough to pay attention.

Serb,

I would like to second dunk999's comment - I know you (Russians) are not evil. I never thought you were. I'm not too fond of your former government, but I don't think "evil" is the proper word for it, and neither is "fascist." Thankfully, however, it is your former government.

-Arrian

So you all but compare the U.S. to the Muslim maniacs? "Hypocrites"? "Holier than thou"? Don't like "axis of evil"? Oh, really.

Well, YOU BET there is EVIL out there - blind fanatical religious hatred fueld by the most reactionary anti-human elements in Islam, and they hate America because of its success, because of its tolerance, because OUR values are the opposite of THEIR values, values dealing with women, theocracies, liberty, religious acceptance, and so much more.

Most of the terrorists of 9/11 came from upper middle class or wealthy families, BTW. So spare me that anti-American Clinton style garbage about us "not doing enough" for the Third World.

The problem is they correctly think we are suckers - too generous and not tough enough. They understand one thing - force. When Muslims for no reason a few weeks ago burned up scores of Hindus in a train in India, the Hindus responded in kind. That is what they understand.

American has for far too long wanted to be loved - instead of demanding to be respected and feared. The other problem is America's suicidal Open Borders policy. Osama's henchmen laughed at us before 9/11 for those borders, and they were right to laugh. They can get terrorists in here anytime they want - and they still can. Man, what a joke the INS is.

[Beren]

Of course there are fanantics in the world. But America tends to generalize these aspects and think in terms of 'who's not with us is against us.' This fanatism just doesn't end by killing them all. Then parts of the Arab people start to think in terms of ennemy of the USA.

First of all, America should realise that fanatism cannot be destroyed or ended. You cannot oppress people certain ideas and even in America itself are extremist Christian groops. The best way to deal with it, is a very thorough foreign policy.

Most important of this all is to solve the problem of the second intifada, mainly increasing pressure on Israel and America and the EU still have a lot of instruments they could use. (For instance, trade embargo. Now that would really damage Israel.)

[Dauphin]

Well, YOU BET there is EVIL out there - blind fanatical religious hatred fueld by the most reactionary anti-human elements in Islam, and they hate America because of its success, because of its tolerance, because OUR values are the opposite of THEIR values, values dealing with women, theocracies, liberty, religious acceptance, and so much more.

This is one of the many American peoples greatest failing - the inability to understand why some countries peoples hate the US to the extreme. What you have said here is not accurate in the slightest.

If you want reasons, look at the US involvement in the Iran-Iraq war and the how the middle-east has evolved into its current state.

[Spiffor]

Coracle :
I'm not a believer, but the Bible says at least one absolute truth :
Hate calls upon hate

(What you're saying is precisely fanaticism, except it's nationalistic rather than religious... You're in the exact same logic as fanaticists are : you think the other one is crazy, a killer, and so you hate him and want to kill him => which makes you a killer, and brings more hate on the other side, which calls upon hate in your side etc. Only intelligence can break the vicious circle)

[easthaven]

Coracle kind of went carried away there but one thing I do agree with him about is that theres nothing wrong hating terrorists. I hate terrorists How can you not hate terrorists? They are the scum of the earth. The purpose of their measly existence is to cause terror upon the innocent. I'm a Catholic and all but I'm not gonna say I love THAT enemy. The pathetic Al-Qaeda's main mission in life is to cause terror and kill as many american and american allies as they can, civilian or military. So screw Al-Qaeda, they are evil. But I'm not saying all arabs are evil, people who think that are stupid ignorant idiots, so don't get the wrong idea that I hate arabs.

Islamic extremism is wrong, Christian extremism is wrong, any kind of religious extremism is wrong as well as Nationalistic extremism. I hate the damn Christian extremism here in America too. If it was up to me I'd hunt down all the racist kkk scum.

And I agree with Beren in saying the best way to stop fanaticism is to have a good and firm foriegn policy which the USA needs to work on. But sometimes you still have to use deadly force to stop terrorism and evil regimes.

I agree with coracle that there is evil in the world, but some of you are right in saying that generalizing a group of people of being evil is wrong. I believe OBL is evil. Hitler was evil. The SS soldiers who oversaw the concentration camps were evil. But maybe the grunts on the ground weren't, they were fighting for their country, they might have been a little brainwashed about them being a superior race but overall they weren't really evil.

And with Serb's comments, he made alot of good points and I agree with alot of them. Many ignorant Americans still think of the Russians as the "evil commies". But fortunately not everybody is ignorant here in the US , so don't generalize us all as being ignorant of the outside world.

Well anyways, sorry I didn't use quotes I'm in a hurry.

PS. All the above is my opinion so don't be so harsh when your bashing me, eh?

[Beren]

Point is how much violence do you use. More people died as a direct result of the bombardments in Afghanistan than from the Twin Towers.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Beren
Point is how much violence do you use. More people died as a direct result of the bombardments in Afghanistan than from the Twin Towers.

Do you have figures for that?

[ChaingKaiShek]

Well there are a few things as an' American that I do not care about my government. But it's not like I'm about to arm myself against them to stop what goes on, In-fact I'm more of the type of person who really would rather have the government hold absolute power instead of a bunch of crazy people (Despite that the fact that the Government itself may be made of those same crazy people.) And by that I mean fanatics. As mentioned above Fanatics of any kind are just plain bad. I mean when you have people who think Killing is wrong, yet they *KILL* doctors who perform abortions and in their twisted minds it is perfectly okay with them.

I on the other hand see no problem with abortion, as long as I personally do not have to "abort" the child, who really cares right? Its someone else’s business let them deal with it.

And there reflects my view on US foreign policy. We should not be running around, playing police force of the world. Everyone has problems, and they can deal with them on their own. There are cases however where help can be requested and should be sent. I do not believe Serbia is one of these places where US troops should have been sent. And why might you ask? I mean do the Serbian’s appreciate the 'help' they were given? I highly doubt it. If anything they think the US and NATO did nothing but sprinkle bombs across their country and then leaves.

It's really just something that I feel however. The Gulf-war and our recent attacks in Afghanistan however are acceptable to me. In the Gulf-war US troops were sent in the defense of a country which another had invaded. And of course after the events of September 11th, I feel the retaliation against the Taliban was carried out nicely, however catching Arse-hola BinLaden would have made things all the better.

To try and get to a point here, because I did have one at the time I started to type this message. I feel that it is sadly, the result of our actions off- US shores which has made Europe and others as well feel this strong Anti-US feeling. And even and Idea such as Freedom is rammed down someone's throat, it can be a bad thing.

And let’s face it here, that is about all the US is trying to do. Spread the US lifestyle across the globe. And I perfectly understand why some people do not want that. I would not like if French-Canadian lifestyle were suddenly pushed upon me. Perhaps we are just mis-guided, And people may be right to say we are Arrogant. But for now the United States is the only remaining Superpower upon the face of our Earth. And why however one day the EU or even China may be a worthy rival. I highly doubt you'll leave us 'swimming in the wreckage of what we once were'.

There are plenty of other ways besides War, which can be used to control the planet. I mean, look at the US Dollar. The most widely accepted and used currency today.

I'm a pretty tolerate guy, I feel no hate towards other countries despite what they may feel for me. The only people whom slightly annoy me are English tourists in the United States. If I hear the question "When is your fireworks day?" one more time, I'm going to shoot myself.

But hey, can't we all just get along? We aren't waging Wars of aggression against anyone, simply retaliating for something with Extreme Prejudice.



Chaing - an American not of American descent

[dunk]

Originally posted by ChaingKaiShek
If I hear the question "When is your fireworks day?" one more time, I'm going to shoot myself.

For everyone's information... the US's "fireworks day" is July 4. July 4 is the day that the Declaration of Independence was read to the citizens of Philadelphia. I've been to the Liberty Bell and Independance Hall too many times.

[Beren]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


Do you have figures for that?

Well, about 3000 people died as result of 9/11 (Substantually less than one day WW II in Russia) and though I don't have time to look it up, in the Dutch quality newspaper NRC (newspaper for the intellectual elite) it said some (European or American, I don't remember) institute or something had made a reconstruction of the number of deaths, using newspaper articles, eye experiences... Any way, it was not some figure brought up by the Taliban.
But I don't have time to prove it right now. Maybe I will in a few days.

[Beren]

I found it! I did some enquiries with the paper and with their help I found the report. It sais about 3767 civilians died in the bombing of Afghanistan. These were only direct victims. The report doesnot include for instance refugees that starve.
The report has been made by an independant scientist connected to the University of New Hampshire, Marc Herold. The report is called: 'A Dossier on Civilian Victims of United States' aerial bombing at Afghanistan.'

Links:
Interesting quotes out the report, click here
The precise casualty count, click here

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/civiDeaths.html

http://www.media-alliance.org/mediaf...erold12-6.html
That ought to be enough proof. If I'm correct less people because of the Twin Towers.

[Dauphin]

Is eye for an eye a correct comparison to make.

Thanx. Its not that I didn't believe you but people are prone to make statements which are unfounded. I always question statements, its part of my job.

The next questions - how many lives has it saved? If the US hadn't acted how many people would have died in further attacks? Are the people of Afghanistan and the world better off? Has the action done more harm than good? Etc.

As an analogy I'm sure more civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki died than were killed at Pearl Harbour.

All are rhetorical points that nothing is black and white.

[Spiffor]

Well, knowing how many people the American intervention saved is impossible as long as we don't have any time-machine. And, depending of the point of view, this number can change dramatically :
Did America stop a madman's regime supporting large scale and genocidal terrorism ?
Did America open its way for Democracy and peace in Afghanistan ?

Or:
Did America bomb a stable (but obscurantist) regime which replaced the constant civil war ?
Did the Taliban regime really support Al Qaeda and similar terrorist groups, which intended to destroy the US, or was it simply the most obvious target that America needed to show it answers to attacks ?
Was the war efficient to quell international terrorism, and most importantly, hate against America (which spawned Sept. 11th and will spawn other attacks) ?
Will the attempt of Afghani unification under a democratic rule succeed ? Will it be really different for the Afghani than the Taliban regime ?

None of these questions have obvious answers. History will tell what the correct answers are. And the explosion or lack of violence also.

[sargon2]

Originally posted by easthaven

In Korea, we liberated a country from communists. And many South Koreans appreciate our intervention, you can ask them. You don't even need to ask them, just look at their country and compare it with North Korea's.

Vietnam, I don't think it was a great idea to enter that war but we did......and then we left....because of the protestors and confused politicians.

Gulf War, we liberated Kuwait from the invading Iraqi's. Thats a good thing, right? We were also a few miles outside of Baghdad when the cease fire was signed, in my opinion we should have went all the way and took out Mr. Suddam Insane, but hey, its just my opinion, doesn't mean its right or wrong.

Afghanistan, I was 100% for this. And its a success. I agree with Serb's comment on how OBL wasn't the main goal here but the goal was to take the Taliban regime out of power and destroy the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, its a first step in the war against terrorism.


The USA is a good country, not some corrupt evil regime unleashed by the devil in an attempt to destroy the world! .....No its not, no matter how much you or Uncle Ivan want it to be so.

So stop bashing America, America is cool......I like America....America is nice to me....

Two thumbs up for the U.S. of A.!!, whooohooo
OH SAY CAN YOU SEE........

UNCLE SAM WANTS YOU!

America =/= U.S. Foreign Policy
So don't msitake: I'm just a good example. I like the amrican culture/people and their open mind for foreign/new influences.
If there were no USA it should be invited. It created a progressiv parameter between that and the traditional ones of old-world ones everybody can choose his position.

But I dislike the U.S. Foreign Policy: I want to refer to your counting above:

WWII: A (only bad that german POW were starving in field camps at the Rhine-grasland (Rheinwiesen)) except that good job. Without that A+.

Korea: after WWII or even after the withdrawl of the Japanese a long period of colonialism and cultural oppression ended that had caused a big part of colaborating people in administration and upper class. That system was capitalistic as it was in Nazi-Germany too - so people decided after independence to elect a communistic (in its original meaning basic democratic) system. People were happy. But the governmental system brought the land close to the SU and China. That wasn't accepted by the U.S. Foreign Policy (not by americam cultur)They created a anti-government in their occupied south based on corruped and formerly-colaborating-with-Japan people. In the south before war many people that resisted and kept their faith were hunted and masskilled. Later War began because the north wanted to stop things going on in the south.

Vietnam: A corrupt and opressive small number of families ruled the south. The North and interial communist group wanted to stop that.

Freedom is relativ. To somebody coming out of colonialistic or dictatorial oppresion the limited possebility of political working in communism is a great improving. So comunism was popular in these countries by a democratic will. But the U.S. Foreign Policy
(not the american culture) supported corupt dictatorial regimes.

Gulf war: at the beginning Iraq was a tool of the US fighting Iran. Though not being democratic they were enormously supllied with weapons. They felt that strong that they wanted to reconquere Kuwait earlier seperated by colonial powers from Iraq. And first hint from the U.S. Foreign Policy (not the american culture) seemed to allow the policy against Kuwait - just a classical misinteritation of a willless servant. So he attacked Kuwait. And US declared war on him.

Afghanistan: Mugahedin were supported (i.e. by Rambo3) to fight the SU-army. After that won they were not contolable, they created a chaos. Than U.S. Foreign Policy (not the american culture) supported Taliban to afight silence and stability for economical intrests purpose of the U.S. Foreign Policy (not the american culture). So they cared for silence by fundamentical oppression. That was regreted by U.S. Foreign Policy (not the american culture) but not fighted. But than the tool went against the master they destoyed WTC. Now they got bombed to stone-age.

In German there is an idiom: The ghosts you called you don't get rid off later. I think U.S. Foreign Policy (not the american culture) did good to abolish their out of control marionetts - they must admit they did a mistake. The only one who paid a price were the populations of that countries.

But, and that is the non-american critics, U.S. Foreign Policy (not the american culture) is not the sollution of those world problems it is a major initiator.

But I love America all the same. If they still would led me later in after my posts here I would like to live there (close to the mexican border) not having to do anything with US Foreign Policy like most other Americans.