Remove the Americans

[Serb]

Originally posted by SieGermans
True masterpiece of a bull**** artist. The only conflicts the Japanese and Russians had against eachother was the detatchment of anti-Bolshevik Japanese forces into Siberia which were removed in 1922.

First battle happen on July-August 1938 it was near Hasan Lake. The second battle August 20- August 31 1939, near Khalkin-Gol, Manchuria. Red army was victorious in both.

Stop the spread of thinking, such as the Red Army's Complete Uselessness in WWII until America arrived. not a chance in hell.

Few digits.
November 1941. North Africa, Tobruk. Operation “Crusader”.
Offence- British forces: 6 divisions and 5 brigades. 118 000 soldiers overall.
Defense- AXIS forces: 3 German divisions 7 Italian divisions about 100 000 soldiers overall.

June 1941. Operation “Barbarossa”
Offence- German forces: 191 divisions, 5.500.500 soldiers overall, 4500 tanks, 47 200 artillery, 5000 planes and 192 ships.
Defense- Soviet forces: 179 divisions 3 000. 000 soldiers overall, 8800 tanks, 38 000 artillery, 7500 planes, 182 ships.

December 1941. Russia. Moscow’s counter-offense.
Offence Soviet forces: 1 100 000 soldiers, 774 tanks, 7 700 artillery, 1200 planes.
Defense German forces: 1 708 000 soldiers, 1170 tanks, 13 500 artillery, 700 planes.

It was the first big defeat of Wermacht. After successful Moscow’s battle and overall major counter-offence German forces lost 832 500 soldiers.
The harm done by Red army to Nazi in this ONLY ONE BATTLE is several times more then harm done by USA army during all war. So, SHUT UP YOUR STUPID MOUTH, and read a couple of books about WW2. (If you able to read of course)

October 1942, Russian front.
German forces: 6 200 000 soldiers, 5080 tanks, 51 700 artillery, 3500 planes and 194 ships. Overall it was 71% of ALL German forces.
Soviet forces: 6 600 000, 735 tanks, 78 000 artillery, 4544 planes and more then 300 ships.
Within 6 month of Stalingrad’s battle (June 1942- February 1943) Nazi lost 1 500 000 soldiers.

October 1942 North Africa. Al-Alamen.
German forces: 80 000 soldiers, 540 tanks, 1200 artillery and 350 planes.
British forces: 230 000 soldiers, 1400 tanks, 2300 artillery and 1500 planes.
German casualties 55 000 soldiers.

I might continue this list but it’s too long, below the overall stat.
Within four years of war on Russian front Hitler’s army lost:
607 divisions more then 10 000 000 soldiers. It’s 80% of overall casualties.
48 000 tanks, 167 000 artillery and 77 000 planes. It’s 75% of overall military units lost.

About 27 millions of Russians sacrifice their lives for this victory.

Did you saw Russians screaming about how they saved everyone’s asses? Did you saw Brits screaming that they saved everyone’s asses? The Brits has more right for that, they participated in this victory more then USA.
What gives to YOU a moral right to shout everywhere that you are saviors of the world?

[Dauphin]

Steam engine was invented by James Watt

What about the Newcomen steam engine built some 50 years before? Or the rotary steam "turbine" developed by the Greeks over 2,000 years ago which was used to ground flour.

Neither were very effective, the only reason Watt is credited is because of refinements that made it economically efficient.

[molly bloom]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by SieGermans


'Molly Boom thank you for quoting the entire Encylcopedia britannica, perhaps you would like to know conflicting viewpoints.'

Pity I didn't then; you might do well to read some of it, and keep from posting krap.

'Otto Lilienthal never made any steps past making his big, dumb, useless gliders. '

And yet the Wright Brothers found his research to be invaluable. Gosh, wonder why?

"In the early 1600's Pomerania was annexed by Sweden. During the next century most of it was incorporated into Brandenburg, therefore becoming part of Prussia."

Duh. It was a principality, not a kingdom, and hardly huge.

'True masterpiece of a bull**** artist. The only conflicts the Japanese and Russians had against eachother was the detatchment of anti-Bolshevik Japanese forces into Siberia which were removed in 1922.'

You sir are a complete and utter idiot. Do some basic historical research, and find out about the two defeats inflicted on the Japanese Imperial Army in Manchuria/Mongolia by the Soviets, just prior to the onset of WWII in Europe.

'Ruskie is a slang term for all slavic speaking people, Croats, Bulgars, Poles, Ukrainians, and Russians'

Right. And Boche or Hun is slang for all Germanic language groups or civilizations.

Your ignorance (chauvinistic and otherwise) is showing.

"Science and invention don't have nationalities- only petty chauvinists like yourself."

'It shouldn't, but it does. It also has quacks like you.'

Funny quack I am- I'd rather be that I than ignorant of history and facts like you.

[Big Fish]

Re: Remove the Americans

Originally posted by heron
I've been playing civ3 for some time now but it bothers me that the Americans are in as a civlization. I mean, they only exist for about 200 years. They don't even have some history.
I say remove them from the game and put in some real people, like the Inca's, the Jews or some African people.

Made it a poll so I can see what other people think.

First the americas are one of the most tecnoligicly advanced people ever. Second the time under the British was purly american that adds 100 years. Third Jews are religous not a nationality it would be israly. Fourth the incas where around for a very short time. Fifth africa his made very little contributions and no civs are world civs. Sixth America is the one remaning super power.

[molly bloom]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by SieGermans




"And the Russians 'kicked the Japanese Imperial Army's ass' (charming phrase, no, really) twice, before WWII broke out. Something MacArthur noticeably failed to do in the Philippines, not long after."

'True masterpiece of a bull**** artist. The only conflicts the Japanese and Russians had against eachother was the detatchment of anti-Bolshevik Japanese forces into Siberia which were removed in 1922.'


Well, doggone it. You live an' learn, don't'cha? Or not, in your case:

"Japan v. Russia, 1939:

Few in the west knew or cared that Japan and the Soviet Union fought a small war on the Siberia-Manchuria border in the summer of 1939. On the ground, these were the largest tank battles since WWI. In the air, large forces were likewise engaged, with the Japanese taking something of a beating. It is difficult to get a fix on actual losses, both countries being notoriously secretive and notoriously apt to over-claim. The only good book in English about this conflict is Alvin D. Coox, Nomonhan: Japan Against Russia, 1939 (Stanford Univ Press, 1985). Here are my notes from Coox.
Since they were first posted, these notes have inspired a lively debate on the Russian side of Nomonhan.

Nomonhan appears to be a village west of the Holsten river (NS at that point) just before it crossed the Soviet claimed boundary (NW-SE at that point). Holsten rises in Lake Abutara a few miles inside Soviet claimed territory, and flows into the Halha river (Khalkhin Gol)."

from: http://www.danford.net/nomonhan.htm

and furthermore:

"Halhin Gol
Russia vs. Japan in World War II

In the Fall of 1941 German tanks were rolling across the Soviet Union, on their way to a near conquest of that huge country. By that winter they had reached the gates of Moscow, and had captured most of the industrialized section of the USSR. Yet their allies, the Japanese, stood by in the East, with substantial forces in Manchuria and elsewhere in continental Asia, doing nothing to attack the USSR. Instead the Empire of Japan looked to the south and to the vast Pacific, and decided to attack the forces of Britain and America.

In the strategic simulation game "Axis and Allies", the forces of Japan and Germany have an excellent chance of achieving victory by jointly attacking the USSR. This would have been especially true in late '41 when the United States was not yet actively at war with either country. So why didn't Japan attack towards the west in 1941?

One factor which is rarely mentioned in the history books is the fact that in the summer of 1939 they tried. In May of that year, Japanese troops crossed the Mongolian-Manchurian border, and had taken up positions. In what was to become a turning point in his career, Georgi K. Zhukov, a Soviet officer who had escaped from Stalin's devastating purges of the military in 1937-38, masterminded and commanded the defense and counter-attack which was to rout the Japanese forces in the summer of 1939, in the battle of Halhin Gol.

Zhukov proposed to hold the east bank of the Halhin Gol river with existing Soviet and Mongolian troops (the 57th Special Corps), and to put together a counter-attack, including reinforcements of three infantry divisions, more artillery, a tank brigade, and significant aviation support. In the attack of Aug 20th, Zhukov was able to completely encircle two Japanese infantry divisions, support troops, and a tank brigade. The Japanese attempted a breakout on the 27th, but failed. The battle was over by Aug 31st with the near-complete destruction of the Manchukuo 23rd. By mid-September the Japanese had lost a total of 61,000 men, and were in full retreat. The Japanese then concluded a non-aggression pact with the USSR and reaffirmed the pre-existing borders. (Soviet casualties were around 18,000 men, of whom about 7,000 were killed).

Zhukov was promoted to General of the Army, given the gold star of a Hero of the Soviet Union, and assigned to command the Kiev Military District. He was later to become the most famous and important soviet general of World War II, saving Moscow and Leningrad in the winter of 1941-42, planning the grand strategy of the counter-attack at Stalingrad in late 1942 and the strategy at Kursk in 1943, and finally taking Berlin in 1945.


Other Keywords:
Tamsagbulag
Chita
K. E. Voroshilov
G. I. Kulik
G. M. Shtern
Khalkhin Gol
Nomonhan Incident
Battle of Halha River
River Khalkha, Khalkin Ghol, Halkin Gol
Lake Khasan, Changkufeng Hill, 1938


The most comprehensive book on the subject in English is "The Nomonhan Incident" by Dr. Alvin Coox of San Diego State University, and can be found at Amazon.com

Note the recent thesis at East Tennessee State Univ.: Bradley S. Thomas. "Japan and Russia at Nomonhan, 1939: A Battle Which Altered Japanese Aims in Siberia and China", 1994 (Antkiewicz, Fritz, Baxter), (Masters in History).

Also, consider the May-Jun '93 edition of Armor Magazine, which contains an article "Nomonhan: Prelude to World War II."

So according to you, these battles never happened....

[Big Fish]

As you mensioned the Russians defeated the Japanese twice and McAurther failed to hold back the Japs at the begining of the war. But than again McAurther had very little support from the sea after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Furthermore, that was in WWII and the right to be a civ or not is not based solely on there miltiary power.

[Jaguar]

The Zulus are another civ that proves my point. Before 1817, the Zulus were a tribe of about 700. When Shaka took over, they prospered for ten years. In 1828, Shaka was murdered. The empire was gone within only a few decades.

The Zulus were an important nation for maybe half the time the Americans have been. And thats being generous.

I do understand what the original poster meant. He/She was just kinda irked by the Americans beginning with Archers and stuff. I suppose they are right, but its not any worse than the Babylonian SDI defense.

You other people are just trying to provoke the ranty guy.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by FireDragon


You other people are just trying to provoke the ranty guy.

Nope. Don't like being called a 'bull**** artist' is all. Or a quack, for that matter. Especially by someone whose grasp of history and facts is as shaky and partisan, as siegermans' .

[Spec]

If the americans can be there, why not put the Canadians, the Brazilians, the mexicains and so on...it doesn't make any sence! Get them out of there!! They always have to go where they dont belong or are not wanted! Get them out of there!!!

No offence.

Spec.

[Whoha]

if you dont want to play against the americans dont select random, if you dont want to play as the americans dont pick them(duh). If you want to play a 16 player game with no Americans edit them out or get one of the pre existing Civ expansion pack things here. If you want to pretend that America does not exist and has done nothing important at all, cant help you there, maybe drugs.

[Big Fish]

Originally posted by Spectator
If the americans can be there, why not put the Canadians, the Brazilians, the mexicains and so on...it doesn't make any sence! Get them out of there!! They always have to go where they dont belong or are not wanted! Get them out of there!!!

No offence.

Spec.

Are you as stupid as you sound. None of thoes contries have any influance on world politics. America is the ONLY remaning superpower and that no one can argue with.

[Whoha]

No, big fish he is trolling like SieGermans was... and some others