Why I think Austria should rather NOT be a Civ...

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Fresno
I don't think the people in Sudeten would agree with that...

Most of the people who lived in Sudetenland before 1945 spoke German.

[Fresno]

True, but not any more.

[jsw363]

I would agree that Austria is another German state, but it held hegemony over the German states for a far longer period of time than Prussia did. It's weird to include Germany (the modern extension of the Prussian state) when an empire of Germanic peoples under the Hapsburgs was so much more powerful. The Hapsburg empire even included all of Spain and its territories in the Americas at one point. While Germany is certainly a key player in modern scenarios, the HRE, united under a Hapsburg monarch, played a large role in a far larger number of wars.
The Hapsburgs saved Europe from the Ottomans twice at the gates of Vienna, in 1589 and 1623.

So I would say that it's a difficult issue since there's already another Germanic civilization, but in terms of power and size the Austrian Empire beats modern Germany any day.

[Fresno]

1. I don't think you should see the Germany of today as the modern extension of Prussia. Although it's true Bismarck was Prussian and he was the one who united Germany, history hasn't stopped since that moment.
2. Even if you regard modern Germany as the Prussian Germany, it doesn't mean all Germans are Prussians. Like Oligarf said: Germans are the people, not only the nation.

[Ecthy]

Modern Germany is far from being a Prussian Germany.

Prussia is nowadays territory of Poland and Russia anyway

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Well Habsburg monarchy is probably the only multicultural European state that held for quite a long time, exactly 500 years That its influence was very significant in Europe, and Habsburgs on their own were important even before 1500, but after that their power really grew.

I think they shpould be included since they did shape world history/ European culture etc... as for Germany, The only Germans in the Habsburg monarchy were Austrians, all the rest were other nations which significantly contributed to the development and strenght of the monarchy while it was on. It is only the mistreatment of the memeber nations in the 1800's and at the beginning of the 20 th century that the nations constituting the monarchy decided they don't want the King anymore. So this was an EU start/ just to centralized for many tastes. A lesson for present day EU.

[GePap]

Civ's, not races or states!

Austrians should not be a civ because they are germans. The Germanss include the Austrians, Prussians, Bavarians, Hannoverians, Thuringians, Saxons, Hessians, and so forth. The fact is that most of the 'Civs' in this game are compilations of large groups of peoples that may have had different rulers and borders over time but always shared a common heritage.
Examples:
The French leader, Joan, was killed by the Burgundians, who were french, yet the French cvi includes them, the Normans, and so forth.
The Chinese include all the different grouops of china, from mandarin speaking Han to Cantonese speakers in the south, so forth.
The Persians not only represent those of Darius and xerxes time, but the Parthians who fought with rome and the Shahs who battled the house of Osman.
Many Aztec cities are actually the cities of those tribes, like Tlaxcala, whic formed part of the coolition that destroyed the Aztec (but they all spoke nahuatl).
The Greeks include all the city states which fought each other for so long, and even include the barbarian Macedonians (out of which came their leader, Alexander)
So forth and so on......
If we are going to add new civs, we should give priority to new ethno-linguistic groupings not included in the game as is, not include every little sub-unit of existing ethno-liguistic groupings, no matter how importantt historically they were. For these reasons, the Spanirds, Arabs, Turks, Indo-Malays, Incas, Koreans, MOngols and some sort of west african empire, like Mali, should be those in the running.

[ranskaldan]

Well said, GePap....

[Ecthy]

But that was my point in the first place...

[Fresno]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
Well Habsburg monarchy is probably the only multicultural European state that held for quite a long time, exactly 500 years.

What about the Roman empire?

[Ecthy]

yes but we're talking about civilized empires

[Fresno]

So the Habsburg monarchy was more civilized as Rome?

[Makeo]

One more reason for putting the Austrians ahead of the Prussians

(In addition to being much more fun than the tight-assed Prussies)

Austria still exists!! Prussia is lost in Poland!!!

[the-elf]

I am with Ecthelion regarding Austria... but here are some comments:

1. Austria certainly was an independent monarchy well before the inception of Germany. Austria was part of the Hapsburg empire for hundreds of years, the other half of which was the Spanish territories. By contrast, Germany did not come into existance unil the 1870's. By 1900, however, Austrian policy was influenced to a great degree by Berlin.

2. Austria would have remained a minor power or satellite of Germany from the beginning had it not united with the Hungarian kingdom. The Hungarian territories, while larger overall, were less developed than the Austrian lands. In addition, The multiethnic makeup of Hungary brought a powerful element of instability to Austria. Conversely, Germany upon its inception was an almost completely homogenous ethnic state.

3. The majority of peoples who considered themselves Austrians also considered themselves to be ethnic Germans. Germans, on the other hand, did not consider themselves ethnic Austrians. In fact, most Germans considered Austrians to be Germans living under a semi-foreign regime.

4. Austria was under the control of the Holy Roman Empire prior to the Hapsburg period. While Prussia was also Holy Roman territory, the political power of this empire originated in the Berlin, not in Vienna.

5. The Reichsmark was legal tender in Austria-Hungary from Germany's creation in the 1870's until it was banned in 1945. The Austrian Schilling was never legal tender in Germany.

5. Austrians speak German. "Austrian" is recognized as a dialect of German.

In some future European scenario, however, the Austrians would be a fine choice to affset Germany's power in Central Europe.

[Herr David]

Geez you guys are talking about Austria and Prussia all the time, and yet no one mentions the Rhineland. Sure, we Rhinelanders didn't imprint our name in the history books, but we're a culture in our own right. No other part of Germany has a Karneval that comes close to ours. Austria had a Golden Age in the 17th century, Prussia in the 19th centiry, but, hey, here in the Rhineland we have a six-day golden age each year! Fat Thurday through Ash Wednesday... Alaaf!

(Sorry if you're not from Germany and didn't understand a word...)