Why I think Austria should rather NOT be a Civ...

[sargon2]

History of the german tribes diverged not until 1806. Before 6th Cent. to 19th Cent(=13 Cents.), there were no doubts about where that german-originally-bavarian-populated region belongs to. 1806 all, really all tribes/particular states went their own ways. 1871 they found together, as a national state but the Habsburgian conglomerate didn't want to give up it's ethnically non-german parts - for they had lost their power. But that countries stayed close friends even followed eachother in to WWI. Germany was a modern national country and Austria-Hungaria a old-fashined relativ. After WWI they had to give up their non-german parts and did want to join Germany. So after a break of 112 years they felt German, and I guess if u had asked the people they had said they were Germans of Austria. So that equals from the 6th Cent till 1918 a uninterrupted continuety. But the german Austrians weren't allowed to join by the victory powers of WWI - for they feared a more powerfull Germany. Since Hitler the Austrians don't want to be seen as German. As I emphasize my Slovacian ancestors. But u can't escape from history for Hitler was just from your Austria. And it was no ethnical problem that he was accepted as a politician in Germany. So if there had should ever be made a distinction it had should be done that days.
Mit gefangen - mit gehangen.

An independent Civ needs more than 200 years of different but similar history. Its cultur, language, ethnicity, sometimes religion, history.

Don't u remember that our countries meet annualy to put forward standart German language. And besides Austria is the strongest supporter of the German demand that our common German gets 3. language of burocracy in EU.

[Toasty]

Let me jump right in...

I think that the Austro-Hungarians might be deserving as a civ, as it's been said, Austria would have never found its influence without the landmass of Hungary. However, the Austrians on their own, are rather not. If you've ever seen a map that divides up what was the Hungarian Kingdom and the Austrian Empire in Austria-Hungary, Austria only controlled what is today Austria, Istria, The Dalmatian coast and Czechoslovakia. The rest was the Hungarian sector.

I guess you can say that AUSTRIANS are Germans, but the Austro-Hungarian culture more or less mixed and along the Danube you can see the variations on German and Hungarian culture that have combined.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you put Austria and Hungary together as one civ then they are definitely more deserving of 'civdom' than Prussia and in general, but hey, this is just my opinion.

Interesting talk though. Good points all around!

[sargon2]

Nobody wanted Prussia, to get an own Civ. Only if Austria got one.
U r right about that important role of the Hungarians in the Habsburgian Empire. But chief still were the german Austrians. Hungarians were juniorpatners. Therefor they were also made responsable of WWI. That is why major hungarian parts are now in Slovacia, Romania and Serbia. For they paid.

[GePap]

To state again

To restate what i said earlier- Germany (regardless of the leader choice) represent all german speakers- which is why cities like hamburg, munich, Frankfurt are built by the Germans, as opposed to the civ being limited to Prussian cities.

If austria gets a civ, then by that logic, the Dutch, belgians, Serbs, Hungarians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Swiss, Bulgarians, Romanians, Scotts, Welsh, Basque, Catalan, Normans, Kievians, and every other independent political unit in European history deserves one - who may civs would that be?

Lets remember that hapburg power until the 18th century was based on thier control of the Holy Roman Empire since they always mnuevered their way to power- but the hapsburgs themselves were simply the Dukes of Austria until 1804 when Francis made Austria not a duchy but inflated it to empire, out of the blue. And the whole Austro-Hungarian bit did not come into effect until 1867, and the hapsburgs had control of hungary only after the conquests by Eugene after the unsuccessful siege of Vienna in 1683. Before that, any connections between the hapsburgs and Hungary were by marriages arranged mainly by maximillian, which all fell apart at Mohacs with the death of the Hungarian King(whose name i forget).

[Thrawn05]

Granted I get my German Blood from my great great grandmother, who came from Austria.

If you don't want to consider Austria as it's own country, then think of it as either part of the German empire or the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Either one works for me.

[Big Fish]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
put in Poles

I have thought about putting in Poles and they would have 2 special units 'Mounted Infintry' and in the modern era 'Submarene With Screen Door'

[Dom Pedro II]

Austria should not be a civilization for several reasons.

First, I saw some people who were sort of misusing the word "nation"... a nation does not have to be a country. It merely means a group of people with similar ethnicity, culture, language, etc. So in that case, Austria is German in terms of nationality. As was stated earlier, were it not for political troubles, Austria would have been part of the unified Germany. Of course, THIS Austria was only the very tiny German Austria. The Austrian Empire on the other hand was a lot more than just Germans... the Austrians were "fortunate" enough to inherit the Balkans with all of its Serbs, Bosnians, Croats, Kosovars, Albanians, Hungarians, so on and so forth and even Poles, Czechs, and Slovaks. Now, the only reason that the Austrian Empire included all of these countries was because good old Charles V who ruled just about all of known creation in his day cut up Europe amongst his Hapsburg heirs. His brother got the Holy Roman Empire... big whoop. If you're going to put Austria as a civilization, you might as well throw in the Holy Roman Empire too. They are merely the ILLUSION of countries. The Austrian Empire was not a nation but rather the landholdings of the last of the Hapsburgs at the time of its collapse in 1918. The main reason being that it was really trying to hold together MANY nations that are much better suited to being civilizations in Civ 3.

[siredgar]

I can't believe this thread is still going on... and on... and on...