APOLYTON EXTRACIVS PACK.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Locutus
Ribannah,
As you probably figured out yourself, I mentioned the Sioux as an option because they were in Civ2. I mentioned Native Americans as an option because this was suggested by others and because they were in CtP. Personally I wouldn't want to change the Iroquois but it's not my call to make...

With regard to Amerind tribes, there are 4 main groups to consider, from south to north:
[1] The Kingdoms (Maya, Aztec, Inca)
[2] The Pueblo tribes (Hopi, Zuni)
[3] The Plains tribes (Sioux and many more)
[4] The Woodland (River Valley) tribes (Iroquois, Algonquin)

Note that most plains tribes came into being because they were driven out of the woodlands by rivals (mainly Iroquois) after European contact.

Of these, [1] were the most advanced, while [4] had the most impact on the rest of the world. So with two slots, I would always pick one from [1] and [4]
each, where the Maya and Iroquois are the dominant choices IMHO.
With more slots, I would certainly consider the Sioux a candidate.

From what I've seen now I highly doubt the Iroquois will be 'pure'. I think I saw some non-Iroquois city names in screenshots and IIRC the UU is a horseman (and thus not Iroquois). I assume you advocate changing these properties if they are not purely Iroquois? I know I do anyway...

Yes, that'll be the first thing I'm going to change. Maybe we can co-ordinate

As for the Africans: don't be too sure. We don't know yet how many civs can be added without causing bugs. Until Gramphos et al had more time to test, we should assume this number lies anywhere between 0 and 65536 (although I don't plan on using every slot if the number is actually that high ). Perhaps it turns out that only 8 civs can be added, that would leave all other Africans out...

With 8 extra slots I would leave out the Zulus in favour of Ethiopia and Nubia, but I'm guessing we can go up to 32 (including Barbs), which means 15 extra.
I would not mind keeping the Zulus then, if only for reasons of 'flavour'.

[LoD]

Locutus: I offer to help coordinate the project for the Polish civ, should such be included in the pack.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Locutus
We'll assume for now that 15 extra civs are possible (certainly no more).

IMO, a player should be able to add at least one custom civ to the variety of Firaxis / Apolyton civs without having to delete another civ. Therefore I suggest that we restrict ourselves to 'only' 14 additional civs.

If possible I think we should add 3 or 4 new CSAs (presuming we can have at least 23 civs total)

Even with only two additional CSA´s (e.g. 'Agricultural' and 'Maritime'), there would be 28 possible combinations of two CSA´s.

[Dr. Nick]

If you look for a Latin American civ I can pull a profile for Argentina out of my ass any day.

[oriel94]

My own ideal list of 'civilizations' is as follows (some of the names - marked '?' - are in draft form but they represent the essential idea). Some are modern, some are ancient, and some are both:

West Europeans (French, Germans, Spaniards, Italians etc) ?
East Europeans (mostly the modern slavic countries) ?
Anglosphere (Americans, British, Canadians, Australians, NZers) ?
Sub-Saharan Africans ?
Latin Americans ?
Arabs
Chinese
Indians
Japanese
Romans
Greeks
Persians
Babylonians/Sumerians ?
Hebrews/Jews/Israelites ?
Egyptians
Meso-Americans (Aztecs, Incas etc) ?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Yes, that'll be the first thing I'm going to change. Maybe we can co-ordinate

I think you've proven over the last weeks/months that you know a thing or two about the Iroquois and we could safely put you in charge of 'renovating' the Iroquois if it comes to that

LoD,
That would be much appreciated. You could start by making pithorr shorten the history of the Polish so it will actually fit in the Civilopedia

El Awrence,
I'm afraid that won't be necessary anytime soon but should it ever comes to that I'll know who to turn to

lockstep,
You're right about the CSAs of course, I meant to say 2 or 3.

I'd personally prefer to fill all 31 slots and not keep something empty. The problem is that most Apolytoners aren't good at making their own leader/unit graphics so they wouldn't be able to add their own civ even if they wanted to. Even if they did have all necessary material, with 31 civs I'm sure everyone has a civ or two (s)he likes less than the others (for me that would be the Zulus and the Hebrew) and which are removed without much sorrow. But it would indeed be a good issue to discuss, if more people agree with you I certainly won't veto it or anything...

[Dr. Nick]

Locutus, Argentina was 6th world economic power in 1910... I bet there's extra room.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by El Awrence
Locutus, Argentina was 6th world economic power in 1910... I bet there's extra room.

I have a hard time believing that. Anyway, this is not Call to Power. But then again, if the US is in... it is all so damn complicated... that is why I say the whole concept of static Civs starting all in 4000 BC is outdated... but noone will listen to me.

BTW, could we re-arrange the German civ and give them the improved rifleman unit as a special unit, as they deserve? thank you.

[LoD]

Locutus: Sure, here's a smaller-sized version of Polish history:

We appeared in 966. Immediately we started kicking everyone else's ass, until 1795, when we found our ass being kicked by Russia, Prussia and Austria. We finally kicked back in 1918, and soon after, in 1920, we kicked the Soviet ass. They returned the favor, with Nazi assistance, by kicking our ass in 1939. Then, after 1945 we found our asses under the Communist boot. Finally, we kicked the asses of our commies in 1989.

In short, Polish history kicks ass.



Seriously now - I'll start by making polls on the leader, the capital, the special unit, and possibly the CSAs (a propos the latter, can anybody recommend a decent PHP + MySQL poll script that handles multiple choice questions?) on my site. This will be announced in the Polish strategy discussion group, as well as (probably, since we're on friendly terms) the other major Polish Civ3 site, civ3.prv.pl.

[Plan Austral]

Originally posted by Ecthelion


I have a hard time believing that. Anyway, this is not Call to Power. But then again, if the US is in... it is all so damn complicated... that is why I say the whole concept of static Civs starting all in 4000 BC is outdated... but noone will listen to me.

BTW, could we re-arrange the German civ and give them the improved rifleman unit as a special unit, as they deserve? thank you.

You should believe it cuz it is true,
it was like our golden age
we received millions of inmigrants from europe,
and our exportable goods were expensive.
Argentina,Canada,Australia and New Zealand
werent very different countries until 1950´s.
Anyways,
i have the felling that the Brazilians will be in
the pack,
you should put the Argentinians
just to equilibrate south america,
to keep those brasilians out of the Rio de la Plata zone.

[Locutus]

El Awrence/Kublai,
Unfortunately for you guys, the majority of Apolyton does not seem to agree (check the XPC poll and recent the poll on the American civ).

Ecthelion,
It's a topic worth debating. I'll remember that for now. I still haven't heard how others feel about messing with existing civs: changing UU, leader, city names. I have another suggestion to make in this respect: Apolyton is already a Greek city, I suggest we add 'Markos Giannopoulos' and 'Daniel Quick' (since there's no Canadian civ) as Greek Great Leaders It wouldn't be good to stuff this mod with easter eggs but these two guys certainly deserve an honorary mention

LoD,
That's more like it

I'm fine with you starting polls in the Polish community but I think you should eventually (when the moment is there - let's not flood this forum with threads regarding this mod) also check with the Apolytoners. Hopefully the results of both discussions will be similiar, otherwise we might have a bit of a problem on our hands

All,
BTW, I just asked Sn00py in the chatroom and he said he'd be willing to help us out with graphics. Of course the amount of graphics needed is huge so more volunteers are more then welcome (many hands make light work)... BTW, I'll post in the Creation forum tomorrow to see if there are more graphics people interesting in helping out. I think we should give our graphics people something to work on ASAP so I'll also start a poll to decide upon at least one UU already, so the graphics people have something to play with (as leader I suggest Genghis Khan, don't think anyone will dispute that).

Markos, you started all this, any chance of a news item to attract more attention to this project (-> more people to vote in polls and more potential graphics people)?

[Dr. Nick]

The poll sounds like a joke. Personal impression.

Specially with the banana addition.

[PMLF]

Originally posted by El Awrence
The poll sounds like a joke. Personal impression.

Specially with the banana addition.

I agree with El Awrence.

I think that the poll should be splited in Regions, like:


1) America
2) Europe
3) Eastern Asia/Oceania
4) Western Asia/Central Asia/Southern Asia
5) Africa

[Jay Bee]

No to tell about the derogatory and arrogant comment about Mexico and Brazil having done nothing good. The idea could have been phrased in a more respectful manner.


Locutus, Merida at one point was the most important Roman city, second only to Rome itself, not 5th

[Waku]

As a matter of "guts"

Cuba, Mexico and Argentina had guts enough to face the anglo-saxon imperlialism. (Spain was excluded because of the same reason btw).

Seems like if the anglosaxons prefere to ignore those who were their enemies once, probably just in case they were defeated when playing a game