Some notes about the German civilization

[Ironwood]

I have a feeling Arent simply is not very good at writing in English, like so many other Apolytoners, though he seems to feel he has a great deal to say, and people's capacity to comprehend his writing be damned.

Still, his very name (Arent... just missing the apostrophe), does suggest an inherent knee-jerk negativity...

[Arent]

Originally posted by Ironwood
...
Still, his very name (Arent... just missing the apostrophe), does suggest an inherent knee-jerk negativity...

OOOH! I won't leave my house at least for
five days now.


Arent

P.s.: You better insult ecthelion for his scatterbrained replies.
It's been a while I was talking that much and the other guy just didn't get it.
Oh well...

[Arent]

Ecthelion, could it be that you are a bit serious about the panzer? I just read this "next civ of the week" thread and you brought it up there, too. Ok, well third reich as golden age seems a little misplaced but the panzer is quite famous due to hundreds of wargames ("Panzer general" for example).
...
Btw. I think they made the panzer quite well. It has 3 movement points - so one may very well assume that this simulates "better tactics".
Just imagine fighting your way out of Europe (cramped with 3-4 civs) and then it comes down to you and the isolated civs which had all the time to develop. This'll be hell on deity

Arent

[Jason]

Incidentally, the Panzer as a UU also at least highlights a sort of German strength, armoured tactics in a certain period. Grenadiers? The only time German infantry were notably superior to their conterparts is what, Frederick the Great's time? Or perhaps the first and second world wars. The infantry of the Franco-Prussian war wasn't anything so special, and worse equipped than the French. Artillery superiority and bungled French command had more to do with it.

A lot of the UUs are quite silly of course. "Musketeers" for France? Uh huh. First they appear to have blunderbusses instead of muskets. And secondly I think the famous French musketeers are a tad more literary than historically significant. A Napoleonic citizen soldier or perhaps an improved Cannon for Charles the Bold would make sense. Ah well.

Looking for a real degree of historical accuracy in a game that is very abstract and gameplay-based is pretty futile in the end. I can appreciate your concern however.

I personally sympathize with poor old Weimar, and I wish people wouldn't skip right from 1924 to 1929 and ignore the little glimmer of hope in there, but it WAS a pretty doomed regime I guess

[Rosacrux]

Incidentally, the Panzer as a UU also at least highlights a sort of German strength, armoured tactics in a certain period. Grenadiers? The only time German infantry were notably superior to their conterparts is what, Frederick the Great's time? Or perhaps the first and second world wars. The infantry of the Franco-Prussian war wasn't anything so special, and worse equipped than the French. Artillery superiority and bungled French command had more to do with it.

Err... what???

The Prussian infantry is considered the best of all times - along with the Spartan hoplites and the WW2 German army - by every military expert in the whole world.

The golden era of the Prussian infantry starts with Frederick the Great and peaks when Moltke gets (after 1860) becomes #1 of the military hierarchy - the excellent performance of the Prussian soldiers was the cornerstone of the continuus military victories of the respective army in that era.

About the 18th century Prussian army... Prussia was a relatively small kingdom placed in North eastern Europe, facing the great powers of the era - Austro Hungaria, Russia, Sweden, France in the many wars fought this century. Only with England they were mostly at the same side.

Heavily outnumbered, with little (and initially of bad quality) cavalry and artillery, they managed to double the size of their country and establish Prussia among the continental powers - and that all due to the excellent performance of the simple Prussian soldier.

I'd suggest you read some military history and only after that proceed to judgements about what the Prussin infantry was - simply the best infantry of all epochs.

Duh!

[Ecthy]

Arent - I actually wasn't mad at you personally... just the cyclical mix of depression and damnation of everything around you... it's a long story

Rosacrux - thank you for making that clear.

Will anyone join me in creating some kind of game edition where the German UU is an improved rifleman? Of course, the Rifleman unit is more a 19th century than an 18th century unit, but as I said, when there's no unified Germany, a golden age doesn't make sense, so it should start in the second half of the 19th century. Therefore, the Prussian infantrist should be a rifleman not an improved musketman or whatever there is.

Anyway, I'm still connecting the unique units with golden ages. What might be another goof trigger for the German golden age?

[Jason]

I'm a historian, and military history is a speciality of mine. That's why I know the actual history of Prussia and not the high-school version.

The Prussian army started to suffer from calcification around the end of Frederick's career.

The golden era of the Prussian infantry starts with Frederick the Great and peaks when Moltke gets (after 1860) becomes #1 of the military hierarchy - the excellent performance of the Prussian soldiers was the cornerstone of the continuus military victories of the respective army in that era.

Wrong. Right smack in the middle of your "military golden age" you have the Jena campaign, when an obsolete, ill-led and ill-motivated Prussian army was utterly crushed and the army and state had to be re-fashioned.

The Prussian army became strong again with Moltke, certainly, but in technical and training terms they weren't marketly superior to the French. The French had finer rifles with a major range advantage and primitive machine guns. It was the horrible leadership of Napoleon III and constant strategic and operational blunders that caused the victory to assume the scope that it did.

It's you who needs to reevalute your "history." Try reading scholarly monographs instead of un-footnoted pulp-fiction history and you'll do better.

Might start with Craig's "Politics of the Prussian Army," the first chapter or so (to 1807) will correct a few misconceptions you seem to have.

Bottom line, in terms of a significant Prussian "unit" that's uniquely better than it's counterparts, I'd say the soldiers of the army of Frederick the Great, a WWI infantry unit with extra defensive power, a dive-bomber or the existing panzer make the best choices.

Personally I think the German UU is well realized; the extra movement is very useful and reflects that the German armored advantage in the Blitzkrieg wasn't raw firepower.

I'd suggest you read some military history and only after that proceed to judgements about what the Prussin infantry was - simply the best infantry of all epochs.

Once more, lol. I'm assuming this is ignorance and not jingoism, but please come back and try again when you know who Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are, and I don't mean the ships. I happen to be a big fan of the Prussians, but that doesn't mean I give them super-powers and turn them into a cartoon. They had their ups and their downs.

[Ecthy]

Thank you for making that point clear, Jason. But let's not get into a debate about this

Well, whenever I read something about the Franco-Prussian war, I get the idea of technologically superior Prussian infantrists... oh well

Apparently, Frederick's armies were the best, and there's no decent unique unit around in the time from 1700-1940 as it seems... I still think it should be an industrial infantry unit. The Germans are an industrial nation in Civ3 as well...

[Jason]

Actually they're Scientific and Militaristic if you mean in terms of national abilities. Cheap libraries and cheap barracks, and extra military promotions.

I agree that the Prussians could most credibly have the good late musket era UU. French Musketeer is probobly just a tip of the hat to the novels, rather than any historical abilities. The French were pretty normal till the revolution, it's unusual to give them the musket-era stand-up power.

Sorry if I was a little abrupt, I just enjoy this area, (I was absolutely infatuated with Prussia for a while) and didn't much take to having my opinion dismissed as unqualified. As it happens, I'm actually writing a paper in a week or two on the improvement of Prussian arms under the great elector. I don't think the Panzer should be sold short though. Yes, it's the obvious choice, but it IS a defining highlight of German military history. The golden-age triggered by the first Panzer victory isn't so important; you can get golden ages from building wonders and such anyway. And in practical terms having a UU in the lategame is a definite plus, and extra-mobile tanks are definately better than normal tanks.

Apart from the advantage of having a fast advancing army, consider the value of penetrating a civ and cutting its critical links to strategic resources. I look forward to having the fastest tanks for a while.

Franco-Prussian war I always get the idea that the real problem is leadership, the higher the worse. The army that "invaded" Germany was practically decapitated, the leadership was so uninvolved, and it only got worse. That war was one fiasco after another at a time when France had to be on top of its game to win.

[Ecthy]

ah well, what does a golden age do anyway? doesn't it just add one food and one shield to each square? I think that affects the game more in medieval/industrial times than in the later game...

[SirSebastian]

Hrm...

Speaking of that... I think it's silly that the Germans aren't considered Industrious... come on... we all know that the Germans are fleißig! Of course, you'd have to take away either Militaristic or Scientific... hmmm..

[oriel94]

Trouble is, the Germans are just so damned talented! Don't they just make you so mad? How to select only 2 CSAs for them? Anything except religious (Luther aside) could be a perfectly credible CSA for the Germans.

[Ecthy]

well, militaristic and industrious would be the way to go if you ask me... commercial, scientific and religious just don't fit... I should know what I'm talking about