The Reason why the Iroquois are in Civ 3

[orange]

Originally posted by Ribannah
So, to sum up, at this point most of us seem to agree about, or at least to some extent:

Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working equivalent, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, The Republic, Leadership, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism

While the disagreements are mainly with:

Construction, Chivalry, Engineering, Navigation, Theology, Communism

I don't think anyone agrees on Medicine, Republic, or Democracy. And I know I don't agree with Feudalism Astronomy or Leadership. But it's good to see that you can make concessions.

[Ribannah]

Here is some info on Iroquois fortifications:

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/eth/46.4keener.html

In A.D. 1535, Jacques Cartier provided the first Euro-American description of an Iroquoian palisade when he discussed the defensive wall around the village of Hochelaga at Montreal. Cartier relates: The village is circular and is completely enclosed by a wooden palisade in three tiers like a pyramid. The top one is built crosswise, the middle one perpendicular, and the lowest one of strips of wood placed lengthwise. The whole is well joined and lashed after their manner, and is some two lances in height. There is only one gate and entrance to this village, and that can be barred up. Over this gate and in many places about the enclosure are species of galleries [platforms] with ladders for mounting them, which galleries are provided with rocks and stones for the defense and protection of the place.

Some villages had a four-line palisade; pole diameters could measure up to 30 inches.

[orange]

As I thought...Pallisade walls are not works of construction, not even works of masonry.

Interesting, but doesn't prove your point, Ribannah...

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by orange

Possibly, but to arm those slaves, you have to have control over the area they're in...which means you've already taken the territory, which means there's no need to arm the slaves (except for defensive purposes)

Good point, but not necessarily true, if they smuggled weapons in... but then again the slaves couldn't probably load and use the weapons without training, so you win one point.

Once again, the Americans were starving the Brits to a last stand. There was no "just one more month" and even if there was, the French navy was there to stop any such attempt.

The French navy left after 1 month, they were over at least one month gone when Cornwallis surrendered, Britain had returned one week late with reinforcements.

DC, check this. I'm almost positive it was closer to 30 million colonists -> 9 million British. I may be wrong. But I'm fairly sure that numbers is ridiculously low.

Every thing I have seen is 3 million to 9 million.

50? What do you base that on?!

Nothing, it sounds reasonable.

75% effort at least. And the other 25% wouldn't have been 'just enough' to change the tide of the war.

But possibly temporarily delay victory.

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Ribannah
So, to sum up, at this point most of us seem to agree about, or at least to some extent:

Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working equivalent, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, The Republic, Leadership, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism

While the disagreements are mainly with:

Construction, Chivalry, Engineering, Navigation, Theology, Communism

I can live with this, even if some of you would individually like to move a few more items from the first to the second list I'd say the Iroquois did pretty well on their own, with their Golden Age yet to come. Most other civs in the top 16 could build on what older civs had discovered.

...now you are being more reasonable

I still disagree with Democracy, Republic ESPECIALLY since you list Monarchy in your list!

Democracy in an Alliance- that is always a true option. They united, yes, however, all alliances have always been democracies unless one party is greater than the other (see ancient hebrew alliances with babylon,etc.)
-How can Iroquois have both Monarchy and Republic!

I Also disagree with mathematics, and possibly environmentalism.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Democracy in an Alliance- that is always a true option. They united, yes, however, all alliances have always been democracies unless one party is greater than the other (see ancient hebrew alliances with babylon,etc.)
-How can Iroquois have both Monarchy and Republic!

DC, they can't. Nor can any other tribe.
First they had one type of government, than they changed it. One could say they had a certain mix though. Then again, the Romans made a far greater mess of their government!

[Fiil]

Originally posted by Ribannah
So, to sum up, at this point most of us seem to agree about, or at least to some extent:

Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working equivalent, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, The Republic, Leadership, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism

Bronze Working: OK they knew about metals like copper and silver and they used them for tools ect. Unfortunately civ2 doesn't reward this. The mixing of copper and tin in a certain proportion under certain conditions are a much bigger achievement, this is what the discovery is about IMO.

Mathematics: Basic geometry includes being able to use something simular to Pythagoras law aswell as the sine, cosine and tangens equations for rectangular triangles. Arithmetics includes irrational numbers like Pi and the square root of two or at least fractions.

Tactics: The Iroquois probably planned their battles and used overall strategies. But tactics IMO includes being able to strenghten and weaken your lines with reinforsments, being able to rally broken troops and stop pursuing troops, being able to flank or surround enemy troops (without hidding). This was first made possible when the commander stopped being in the front line, and stayed behind his troops to get the broader view.

I also disagree with Code of Laws, Monarchy, Medicine and Environmentalism for reasons already explained.

Regarding Astronomy, Philosophy, The Republic and Democracy they had some knowledge on these subjects.

Originally posted by Ribannah
I can live with this, even if some of you would individually like to move a few more items from the first to the second list I'd say the Iroquois did pretty well on their own, with their Golden Age yet to come. Most other civs in the top 16 could build on what older civs had discovered.

They sure did! Eventhough I think you overdo it a bit they are more advanced than I ever imagined.
Now I think I will call them a true civilization (though I still think 25000 is a little too few to be real independant). But I find it easy to understand why Firaxis chose them, and I'm looking forward to seing them in action.

[orange]

Any tribe can have knowledge of all government types, not just the one they are using. If the Americans wanted a Monarchy, we could create one. We have the knowledge of what Monarchy is and how to create one.

However, I still don't think the Iroquois had republic or democracy. Alliance does not = republic/democracy

good post Fiil I agree with most of what you said, and as I do feel they are a civilization, I don't feel the Iroquois deserve to be in the game...in light of the Spanish, Arabs, Inca etc. not being included.

[Ribannah]

Thank you, Fiil .
I think you should enjoy reading this treatise about Iroquois warfare, since you seem to know a bit about tactics:

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/eth/46.4keener.html

The 25,000 citizens is just the Five/Six Nations, there were other Iroquois who either joined other alliances or remained independent. The estimate is that there were over a 100,000 Iroquois in total.

[orange]

Originally posted by Ribannah
DC, they can't. Nor can any other tribe.
First they had one type of government, than they changed it. One could say they had a certain mix though. Then again, the Romans made a far greater mess of their government!

"tribe" eh? Interesting that you picked tribe over Civilization.

The Romans had Monarchy, Republic, Despotism, and more! Roman leaders created systems like The principate under Augustus, which was basically a Monarchy disguised as a Republic

Brilliant stuff, the Iroquois never had this or anything of the sort. Despotism, and Monarchy at best.

[Ribannah]

Here is some info on Iroquois agriculture (also re: environmentalism.)

http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9408/0185.html

The next time you bite into a sweet ear of corn think of this: people in the Americas have been growing this fabulous vegetable for 7,000 years. Corn, our most important native crop, was already part of an ancient tradition when Columbus first landed on these shores. Corn was so important to Native Americans it was considered a gift from the creator.
The people we know as the Iroquois used corn as an integral part of an agricultural tradition and method they called "The Three Sisters." They
interplanted corn, beans, and squash together in hills, where they grew
together for the remainder of the season.
"Interplanting has many advantages," says Marcia Eames-Sheavly, gardening specialist with Cornell Cooperative Extension and author of "The Three Sisters: Exploring an Iroquois Garden."
"Iroquois farmers adapted this ecological planting method to meet the needs of their crops and their people," Eames-Sheavly says. "Interplanted crops are not as attractive to pests as are large plantings of one crop. The corn supports the beans, the beans provide nitrogen for the corn, and the squash or pumpkins help to control weeds." ...

and:

""We're now coming to realize what a sophisticated and sustainable cropping system the Iroquois had," said Mt. Pleasant, Cornell assistant professor of soil, crop and atmospheric sciences and coordinator of the American Indian Agriculture Project.
"They fed a sizeable population for hundreds of years without chemical fertilizers, pesticides or tillage (the Iroquois used no plows or draft animals) and without exceeding the carrying capacity of the land."

[DarkCloud]

Ribannah- that is not environmentalism, it is however, fairly advanced farming- these people were not thinking about the land, they were thinking about their food, it was less susceptable to pests if they interplanted!

Also, food for 25,000 is not very hard to obtain.
The Iroquois League, never had more than 6 nations in it at any one time... Sometimes they had less close allies, but they never were part of it, thus you cannot count them as feeding them.

And yes, they did trade food, but that does NOT say they were environmentalists. They just did not have access to pesticides, etc.

-The Iroquois : Their leaders may have been appointed or some people may have said "so and so" is the greatest warrior- thus they did elect chieftans. But not in a true way... If you consider this a republic then any of the ancient tribes in the game would be considered as having a Republic!

The Iroquois most certainly did not have a democracy, no nation on earth has or has had a democracy... the Greeks came the closest- not everyone voted on every issue, not everyone was even allowed to- how can they have chiefs and have a democracy.

---

Any tribe can have knowledge of all government types,

orange- good point

[orange]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Ribannah- that is not environmentalism, it is however, fairly advanced farming- these people were not thinking about the land, they were thinking about their food, it was less susceptable to pests if they interplanted!

Also, food for 25,000 is not very hard to obtain.
The Iroquois League, never had more than 6 nations in it at any one time... Sometimes they had less close allies, but they never were part of it, thus you cannot count them as feeding them.

And yes, they did trade food, but that does NOT say they were environmentalists. They just did not have access to pesticides, etc.

-The Iroquois : Their leaders may have been appointed or some people may have said "so and so" is the greatest warrior- thus they did elect chieftans. But not in a true way... If you consider this a republic then any of the ancient tribes in the game would be considered as having a Republic!

The Iroquois most certainly did not have a democracy, no nation on earth has or has had a democracy... the Greeks came the closest- not everyone voted on every issue, not everyone was even allowed to- how can they have chiefs and have a democracy.

---

orange- good point

Yes, again, respect for nature Gods is one thing, preserving and protecting the environment is another.

IMO, you can't have environmentalism until you've begun not only understanding exactly how the environment works, but also until you've begun to use things that destroy it. The Iroquois had neither.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Ribannah- that is not environmentalism, it is however, fairly advanced farming- these people were not thinking about the land, they were thinking about their food, it was less susceptable to pests if they interplanted!

Historians consider the interplanting method on par with the terraces used by the southern tribes, and only the Hopi are considered to have had advanced further before contact.
Unfortunately, their is no agriculture tech in the game .

Also, food for 25,000 is not very hard to obtain.

True, but before their golden age, they had many close neighbours, the Iroquois tribes that didn't join the league among them.

Their leaders may have been appointed or some people may have said "so and so" is the greatest warrior- thus they did elect chieftans. But not in a true way... If you consider this a republic then any of the ancient tribes in the game would be considered as having a Republic!

A Republic is a government system where the ruling body - for instance a senate, but likewise a council of elders - chooses their own members - not the people. Strictly speaking for a Republic the selection criterium is wealth, and if it is wisdom instead it should have another name, but civ2 doesn't make that distinction.

The Iroquois most certainly did not have a democracy, no nation on earth has or has had a democracy...

Ah, but that is a different discussion. We are talking in civ2 terms here, where the Statue of Liberty accompanies the tech even while at the time women and non-whites weren't allowed to vote.

[orange]

Historians consider the interplanting method on par with the terraces used by the southern tribes, and only the Hopi are considered to have had advanced further before contact.
Unfortunately, their is no agriculture tech in the game .

Exactly. Not environmentalism.

A Republic is a government system where the ruling body - for instance a senate, but likewise a council of elders - chooses their own members - not the people. Strictly speaking for a Republic the selection criterium is wealth, and if it is wisdom instead it should have another name, but civ2 doesn't make that distinction.

This is an aristocracy...A republic shows representative government. This did not exist outside of alliances between tribes - not a republic.

h, but that is a different discussion. We are talking in civ2 terms here, where the Statue of Liberty accompanies the tech even while at the time women and non-whites weren't allowed to vote.

Show me examples of elected leaders, by the people or some representation of the people, in Iroquois society.