The Reason why the Iroquois are in Civ 3

[splangy]

I dont like the Iroquoise for a gameplay reason...

I am gona play as the Americans on world map ALOT (I am american and the world map feels much better than a random) and these guys are gona be breething right down my neck while the Azteks capture all of south America and the resources that will allow it to friggen kick the crap out of everyone else. I will replace the Iroquoise Immediatly with the Incas...

But ofcourse this is my own little, pointless problem so I probably didn't need to make this post

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by El Awrence
Excuse me Ribannah, but the period table and what it entails was developed by Mendeleyev, a RUSSIAN, in the second half of the XIXth century. Not by the French... what French person may I ask?

A. E. Béguyer de Chancourtois, in 1863.
Dmitrii I. Mendeleev made some great improvements, and we're still using a table that looks much like his, but he was not the first.

[Fiil]

Ahh, now I needed that smiley by Gramphos:

:muhahaha: (Evil laughing smiley)


If anyone is unsure how to start an argument after this...

-Simply ask Ribannah to speak her mind-


Anyway I like this discussion because IMO it concerns the fundamental part of our difference in opinion.

Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Guerilla Warfare, Polytheism, Mysticism: I think we agree on these.

Bronze Working: Did they fabricate their own bronze? Or did they only use copper? I honestly don't know, so you tell me.

Masonry: You need to build in stone here, I don't think the Iroquois ever did this?

Map Making: Again I don't know, did they draw their own maps? And were these so close to correct in distances that another person could follow them. "Treasure maps" don't count!

Writing: This will take more than four symbols on a belt! For one thing it requires sentences, not only nouns put together to give a general meaning.

Code of Laws: A complete list of crimes with punishments, I don't know if they had this but I doubt it.

Mathematics: Geometry and arithmetics at least, again I doubt they had it.

Construction: The very basics of contruction includes the knowledge of how to raise a selfsupporting arc, the romans were one of the first people to learn this.

Navigation: The ability to orientate after the stars alone. I doubt they could do this.

Engineering: Engineers use scientific approach in solving all problems. This includes calculations on constructions. The military or civil engineer at which this "discovery" is clearly aimed also use simple mechanisms like transmissions. I should know this btw.

When the competetors in the surviver show build a wodden hut they don't use any construction principles and it doesn't make them engineers either.

Monotheism: Requires them to have one god! Explaination please.

Medicine: To make this more than witchcraft, it is necessary to know the functions of the different parts of the body (this includes most entrails). Having medicine means you're educating some members in your tribe systematicly, and that every 'medicine man' uses the same approach.

Chemistry: This is not alchemy! This is knowing that substances are made up of atoms with specific properties.

Theology: Like medicine this requires literacy and university without it you simply cannot assure a systematical training of students.

Metallurgy: This makes no sence without cast iron.

Tactics: Here I'm not sure, but to make this a discovery that all stoneage men didn't have, this must be the military tactics needed to control an army of infantry, cavalry and artillery at the same time so that these enforces eachother.

Monarchy: This is when the crown is inherited, not when a king is voted for like in the early dark ages in Europe. I don't know if it ever worked this way for the Iroquois, but it doesn't count if the son/daughter of a chief is elected.

Feudalism, The Republic, Democracy, Communism: Are all a bit hard to talk about when you only have 25000 citizens who are also divided into five or six independant nations.

Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy: Yeah, they probably knew something here, this leaves it up to basics/advanced.

Chivalry, Leadership, Invention, Environmentalism: Are IMO all abstracts hard to discuss.

I was actually hoping you would explain your choices Rib!

[aaglo]

Originally posted by Ribannah
....And did you know they had saunas in their houses?

heehee, but I can bet my ass off that those steam-houses (or whatever) weren't called sauna. That's a finnish word, and I don't recall finns ever to make early (before columbus) contacts with Iroquois.

BTW, this thread seems like a warzone: Iroquois vs. Everybody.
It is sad and pathetic
But I have this to say to Ribannah: Hiawatha will rule the earth

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Ribannah
You mean like the compass, the periodic table and gunpowder?
Wow! Put them in the game!

Ribannah,

"Most" was the operative word in my post. I bet that even you can understand what the word "most" means. However, I must say that I already expected that kind of answer from you...

And, no, I meant like Mathematics, Construction, Engineering, Astronomy and Philosophy (to name a few), actually.

But still, the Compass and Gunpowder were indeed old news to the Chinese (and to the Indians and Arabs) 400 years before European contact with the Iroquese.

So don't try to be so awfully smart!

[Ribannah]

Thank you, Ironwood, for some serious input!
In general, you're taking your own civilization's applications and ways as point of departure. Also, you read a little too much in my post.

Writing: the Iroquois (and others) sent and received diplomats and used messages on wampums to confirm treaties. Btw, not just the figurines on the wampums have meaning, the colors and margins etc. have meaning as well.

Code of Laws: documented on wampums

Construction: construction is nothing more than the skill to "put things together in a logical and complete way", or a more scientific definiton, "planning, designing and building of structures and/or infrastructure". (Think of Lego .)
Size has nothing to do with it. Even so, the community houses and the town walls were good-sized. Several different materials were combined to build them, and building had to be done in the right order. This is way beyond sticking some poles in the ground and hanging some hides!

Chivalry: I guess it depends om whether you attach a strictly military (cheval = French for horse) or a broader social meaning to the word (honor, doing the right thing). I took the latter meaning, but the opposite point of view is just as defendable.

Engineering: the use of machinery on order to do the same work faster (plus incorporating planning etc. from construction).
Iroquois knowledge about Engineering is very limited, but not totally absent. They had wedges, levers, drills and sleds, but for lack of The Wheel they got stuck there. I guess you could say they didn't master this technology, but were a novice at it.

Navigation: finding your way without the aid of recognizing your surroundings. If anyone was able to do that, it was the Amerind. Most don't even have words for left and right and other relative directional terms, as they are always aware of their absolute direction. Not just from the sun and the stars, but also from moss growing on trees and such things. This made them the greatest scouts on mother Earth. The Iroquois did not go out on the ocean, because they didn't live near the ocean. But they were excellent navigators on land and lake, using all the information nature provided. While the Europeans were better on sea, the Amerind tribes were better on land.

Chemistry: the Iroquois used chemistry (combining substances to turn them into other substances) for a.o. leather tanning, dye, polish, waterproofing, food preservation (pemmican, smoking) and medicine. In civ2, Chemistry comes early in the tree (around Gunpowder, far before the discovery of the periodic table), so IMHO this qualifies.

Leadership: communication and control in a military campaign. It has really nothing to do with horses per se. For communication the Iroquois used runners (much faster than any European, and beating any horse in the forest) and smoke signals (Europeans: flags). For control they had warrior chiefs in several ranks.

Tactics: partitioning the military and using manoeuvres. The Iroquois used patrols, flank attacks, feigns, decoys, stealth, timed attacks, combined attacks (foot and canoe), and any military tactic we might think of, and they were good at it. How else could they consistently beat larger rivals, who had equal weapons?

You may be right about Masonry. While it is unlikely that the Iroquois wouldn't be able to build a stone wall or dwelling, they simply didn't do it - obviously they had no use for it, moving to new village sites every 20 years or so, but that's how it is. They might have had the skill, but there is no proof. I added it to the list without much thought since they did have construction and math but as I said myself, there tech tree is different from ours. So Masonry goes, for that they had Woodcraft.

LOVE HIAWATHA!! LOVE HIAWATHA!! (thank you Aaglo )

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Ribannah


A. E. Béguyer de Chancourtois, in 1863.
Dmitrii I. Mendeleev made some great improvements, and we're still using a table that looks much like his, but he was not the first.

Ok, so he made a list. Nonetheless, the first one to have a grasp of periodicity was Mendeleev.

[Dr. Nick]

Well, this argument won't go anywhere because despite everyone agreeing what each term in the tech tree is, Ribannah is still yelling little twisted definitions to suit her own argument, ergo, this argument won't go anywhere.

[Be Quicker]

horses in the america's (& construction)

Regarding horses in the new world. When the game starts (4000 B.C.) the horse-like animals of the new world were already extinct, because they went extinct at the start of the ice ages (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses.html). Therefore it is very hard for any native American society to have developed horse-back riding prior to the arrival of horses with the Europeans.

Regarding stuff like Engineering, Construction, Writing, Code of Laws etc. All these "scientific advances" very much form a CONTINUUM from completely absent to clearly present. This greatly hampers the discussion here, as people differ in their opinion on when you can say that a society has discovered a certain advance. A consensus should thus be created on what constitutes/proves that a society has for example "Construction". IIRC Construction (to continue on that example) in Civ II allowed for building the colosseum and an aqueduct. AFAIK the Iriquois did not build these; hence they IMHO did not have Construction. etcetera.

[aaglo]

But the civ-game series is about rewriting the history . Some people just seem to forget that one little detail...

[Be Quicker]

Originally posted by aaglo
But the civ-game series is about rewriting the history . Some people just seem to forget that one little detail...

I do not know if you reacted to me or the general thread, but since when does this stop anybody (specifically me)?

Yes the Civ Game is about rewriting history. Therefore in the Game the Iriquois can happily discover Construction, build Aquaducts (sp?), and train horses on their randomly generated continent. However, this thread, at least partly and more importantly the part to which I felt I must voice my opinion, deals with the achievements of the Iriquois. And that was what my comments were about.

[aaglo]

Originally posted by Be Quicker
I do not know if you reacted to me or the general thread, but since when does this stop anybody (specifically me)? ...

Yeah, sorry. It wasn't ment for you, it was ment for the whole bunch of threads about similar things.
"They can't be in, because they didn't discover electronics and thus weren't able to play the original civilization"
Blaah...

[Be Quicker]

Originally posted by aaglo


Yeah, sorry. It wasn't ment for you, it was ment for the whole bunch of threads about similar things.
"They can't be in, because they didn't discover electronics and thus weren't able to play the original civilization"
Blaah...

LOL. No worries. I completely agree with you. Me thinks its pretty obvious why they are in, but they still are clearly the most suckiest of those that are in. Hence my support for the whole "why iriquois are primitive/small/insignifcant" camp. (which is a different camp from the "they should not be included" camp)

[orange]

Construction: construction is nothing more than the skill to "put things together in a logical and complete way", or a more scientific definiton, "planning, designing and building of structures and/or infrastructure". (Think of Lego .)
Size has nothing to do with it.

Chivalry: I guess it depends om whether you attach a strictly military (cheval = French for horse) or a broader social meaning to the word (honor, doing the right thing). I took the latter meaning, but the opposite point of view is just as defendable.

I've got a better definition for ya. Chivalry was marked by a period of STIRRUP use by horsemen. This enabled the man on horseback to control the animal with his feet, rather than his arms. His arms were then free to attack at units below. Prior to Chivalry, cavalry units were not used as the main method of attack...it was infantry related. Show me an Iroquois stirrup...please, let alone an Iroquois knight.

Engineering: the use of machinery on order to do the same work faster (plus incorporating planning etc. from construction).
Iroquois knowledge about Engineering is very limited, but not totally absent. They had wedges, levers, drills and sleds, but for lack of The Wheel they got stuck there. I guess you could say they didn't master this technology, but were a novice at it.

These are simple machines, dearie, and the Iroquois didn't even have knowledge of them all! You can not consider this Engineering. There is no such thing as an Iroquois made 'machine'.

Navigation: finding your way without the aid of recognizing your surroundings. If anyone was able to do that, it was the Amerind. Most don't even have words for left and right and other relative directional terms, as they are always aware of their absolute direction. Not just from the sun and the stars, but also from moss growing on trees and such things. This made them the greatest scouts on mother Earth. The Iroquois did not go out on the ocean, because they didn't live near the ocean. But they were excellent navigators on land and lake, using all the information nature provided. While the Europeans were better on sea, the Amerind tribes were better on land.

This is a definition of map making. Very primitive map making.

You may be right about Masonry. While it is unlikely that the Iroquois wouldn't be able to build a stone wall or dwelling, they simply didn't do it - obviously they had no use for it, moving to new village sites every 20 years or so, but that's how it is. They might have had the skill, but there is no proof. I added it to the list without much thought since they did have construction and math but as I said myself, there tech tree is different from ours. So Masonry goes, for that they had Woodcraft.

You can't say "well they didn't need to do it, but they had knowledge of it"

We have knowledge of ways to create super advanced robot controlled space ships that navigate throughout the unknown universe and bring back alien slave children. We just don't need to build them. But we have the knowledge!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You know if Ribannah is going to happily assign her own Iroquoisized definiton of every advance on the tech tree, then ya know what...

The Iroquois also had knowledge of Advanced Flight because of Native American ballooning. They had knowledge of Steel as well, becuase well...it was something they thought about but just never got around to doing in their busy schedules. They also had knowledge of Communism, before the term Communism was ever coined...this is because they had knowledge of telepathy, they even knew that the Euros were coming, which is why they prepared huge amounts of tanks to crush them as they landed. After all, they did have knowledge of Tank Warfare. A horse can be considered a tank.

Us Euro/Americans have been in the dark for soooooo long

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Construction: construction is nothing more than the skill to "put things together in a logical and complete way", or a more scientific definiton, "planning, designing and building of structures and/or infrastructure". (Think of Lego .)
Size has nothing to do with it. Even so, the community houses and the town walls were good-sized. Several different materials were combined to build them, and building had to be done in the right order. This is way beyond sticking some poles in the ground and hanging some hides!

Chivalry: I guess it depends om whether you attach a strictly military (cheval = French for horse) or a broader social meaning to the word (honor, doing the right thing). I took the latter meaning, but the opposite point of view is just as defendable.

Any society could be argued as having chivalry- chinese, european,etc. All that this defines is "Rules for war."

Engineering: the use of machinery on order to do the same work faster (plus incorporating planning etc. from construction).
Iroquois knowledge about Engineering is very limited, but not totally absent. They had wedges, levers, drills and sleds, but for lack of The Wheel they got stuck there. I guess you could say they didn't master this technology, but were a novice at it.

Engineer- "en·gi·neer (nj-nîr)
n.
One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
One who operates an engine. "

OMG! The Iroquois had engines!

Navigation: finding your way without the aid of recognizing your surroundings. If anyone was able to do that, it was the Amerind. Most don't even have words for left and right and other relative directional terms, as they are always aware of their absolute direction. Not just from the sun and the stars, but also from moss growing on trees and such things. This made them the greatest scouts on mother Earth. The Iroquois did not go out on the ocean, because they didn't live near the ocean. But they were excellent navigators on land and lake, using all the information nature provided. While the Europeans were better on sea, the Amerind tribes were better on land.

Navigation in CIV III refers to navigation in the ocean, rivers (at least in Civ II) were not navigatable! Iroquois lived near the ocean, they could have gone down any of the rivers that emptied into the ocean- they just had not advanced to the need to visit the ocean.

Leadership: communication and control in a military campaign. It has really nothing to do with horses per se. For communication the Iroquois used runners (much faster than any European, and beating any horse in the forest) and smoke signals (Europeans: flags). For control they had warrior chiefs in several ranks.

Any warrior society had the type of leadership you describe.

Tactics: partitioning the military and using manoeuvres. The Iroquois used patrols, flank attacks, feigns, decoys, stealth, timed attacks, combined attacks (foot and canoe), and any military tactic we might think of, and they were good at it. How else could they consistently beat larger rivals, who had equal weapons?
[/QUOTE]

They didn't have larger rivals- they outnumbere3d the rivals... Not in the entire colonies, but in the part of new york they resided

Everything you described was present in the Spanish, Inca, Mongols, and more so.

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Orange- However, I do believe that the Iroquois could probably have helped the British win the Revolutionary war if they tried... The Iroquois could have possibly destroyed the weak Continental army if they teamed up with the British... However, if the entire Continental army faced an equally numbered Iroquois force, the Continental army would have destroyed it--- the Iroquois would beat weapons by sheer force of numbers.

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