The Reason why the Iroquois are in Civ 3

[orange]

Ribannah - I was willing to cut you some slack before, obviously you seem to like the Iroquois and like the fact that they are in Civ III, which is fine - you are entitled to your opinion...

However, what you have provided with in your posts in this thread in particular is absolutely idiotic ****.

Ehhm, because they weren't Iroquois? (While the Cherokee, on the other hand, could be considered as part of the 'greater Iroquois tribe', as they are closely related to the six nations.)

The Cherokee were not Iroquois, the Mohawk were not Iroquois, the Sioux were not Iroquois. This quote simply shows how completely moronic your logic is.

The main reason Firaxis hasn't even considered the Incas is that because a certain someone got his wish and we aren't allowed to build cities on mountains in civ3!!

The Inca are not absent from the game for either of the reasons you gave, not because they are not the Iroquois, not because cities on mountains are not allowed.

Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working, Masonry, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Construction, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Chivalry, Engineering, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, Navigation, The Republic, Chemistry, Leadership, Invention, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Theology, Metallurgy, Communism, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism

As stated before by Ironwood, this is unquestionably laughable, and not justifiable by any stretch of the normal historian's imagination.

Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working...yes

Masonry no

Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics - yes (some more of a stretch than others)

Feudalism - nope

Construction - hell no

Mysticism, Polytheism. Monarchy - sure

Chivalry - How you can even remotely believe that the Iroquois had a system of Chivalry is beyond me. The virtues of

piety, honor, valor, courtesy, chastity, and loyalty

are not seen in Iroquois warriors the way they were seen in European society during the mid to late middle ages.

Engineering - There weren't even any Iroquois road systems! How can you say that they knew Engineering!!

Trade - rudamentry, but ok.

Astronomy - not a very rich understanding, no.

Philosophy - ok, in their own way, yes.

Navigation - no way. Uh-uh. Not even close. Show me a non coastal Iroquois journey by ship and I'll agree.

The Republic - nope. Show me representative government in the Iroquois society. Please. And don't bring up the seven nations ****...that's not a republic, that's an alliance among people who hate each other for defensive purposes. And they still couldn't make it work, as shown by the American revolution.

Chemistry - now you're just making me laugh.

Leadership - not even close.

Invention - any society can have invention. Stupid advance for civ...so I'll give it to you on that basis.

Medicine - again, rudamentry...based on religious theory.

Monotheism - when do you remember the Iroquois being Monotheistic? Those that converted to Christianity to avoid being killed? Sorry, burnt...doesn't count. But you do earn some lovely parting gifts.

Tactics - This is broad...but still, military intelligence was non-existant. It was a battle of numbers, and skill...not tactics.

Democracy -

Theology - Nope. They didn't have anything to study or examine. Research some of these terms dear, before you try to debate about them.

Metallurgy -

Communism - show me an Iroquois period which Communism existed. You're starting to make me ill.

Guerilla Warfare - finally, something I can give you credit for amidst these lies and half truths. Yes, they had Guerilla warfare and were damn good at it. Probably the one and ONLY thing the Iroquois taught Euros.

Environmentalism - you can't learn to protect the environment until you've begun destroying it. I don't count this simply because they were careful not to tick off the earth moon and wind Gods.

Go do some research, and come back when you know what you're talking about...

HATE RIBANNAH!! HATE RIBANNAH!!

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Christantine The Great


The Aztecs, as AoK puts it, were at a cultural dead end. They were simply more advanced barbarians who barely held on to that empire (I bet that...800 men could topple it). Of course there needs to be more civs in America and the Incas couldn't fit on the CivII map.

Christantine- 1.) They thought the Spanish Were Gods, 2.) the Spanish had indian help, 3.) MOST IMPORTANTLY- the spanish had guns and got into their capital city and sacked it. 4.)Disease, possibly more important than #3

The Aztec had writing, games, culture, etc.


Ribannah- Riflemen hah! I doubt they would have developed gunpowder on their own, not to any fault of their own, but because of supply and demand- as far as I see it, they were supplied by Europeans for most of their advanced weaponry.

IROQUOIS DID NOT HAVE DEMOCRACY- only the CHEIFS VOTED!

But, as an example, today Mohawk construction workers are most celebrated as they have no fear of heights. I'll get back to you in more detail later.

I am awed

compass, the periodic table and gunpowder?

Iroquois never developed gunpowder on its own.
Compass- Europeans
Periodic Table- Not invented until Mendeleev

Horseback Riding, The Wheel, Iron Working (not sure), Currency, Seafaring, Literacy, University, Bridge Building, Gunpowder

I am assuming you are saying that the Iroquois never developed these.

NO HORSES EXISTED IN AMERICA UNTIL THE EUROPEANS!

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by orange
The Mohawk were not Iroquois

Poor little Orange - down the drain he goes

[Ribannah]

IROQUOIS DID NOT HAVE DEMOCRACY- only the CHEIFS VOTED!

I take it you're talking about making decisions, not selecting representatives, which can be done in other democratic ways than voting.
AMERICANS DO NOT HAVE DEMOCRACY- only the CHIEFS VOTE!

Iroquois never developed gunpowder on its own.

Americans never developed gunpowder on their own.

Compass- Europeans

Chinese, rather. Anyway, no Americans.

Periodic Table- Not invented until Mendeleev

Wrong again. French invention. Anyway, no Americans.

NO HORSES EXISTED IN AMERICA UNTIL THE EUROPEANS!

Well, they did, but not the mountable kind.
Poor Americans! Didn't invent Horseback Riding on their own either. Away with them!

Btw after European contact the Iroquois developed Currency on their own.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by orange
Chivalry - How you can even remotely believe that the Iroquois had a system of Chivalry is beyond me. The virtues of are not seen in Iroquois warriors the way they were seen in European society during the mid to late middle ages.

While I agree with most of what you're saying, Orange, let's be honest here. Those virtues were most assuredly not seen in European warriors either. That was the ideal. It was not practiced--it was barely even attempted.

[DarkCloud]

THE MOHAWKS WERE NOT IROQUOIS- The Mohawks were not always in the Iroquois confederation, they warred among the Iroquois League... The Mohawks sometimes allied with the League and sometimes were out of it (in the later years of the league their being out of it was more true than naught)

Orange- Gun is correct, no society can truly claim to be 'chivalrous'...

Chiefs=Elected? Not truly, they were 'elected' but by a council, not everyone participated- at best you could call their society a republic, but not even in the style of ancient greece.

Americans never developed gunpowder on their own.

WOW! THAT REALLY HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THIS ARGUMENT

Wow, none of your comebacks had anything to do with anything- you answered nothing you cute little fiend- Now I truly understand why OmniGod was disgusted with your backstabbing tactics in Earth:2025.

Well, they did, but not the mountable kind.

?

Wrong again. French invention. Anyway, no Americans.

Where am I wrong- I never said Americans- Are you hoping to discredit me by telling me I am saying one thing that is wrong- idiot!

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
THE MOHAWKS WERE NOT IROQUOIS- The Mohawks were not always in the Iroquois confederation, they warred among the Iroquois League... The Mohawks sometimes allied with the League and sometimes were out of it

Make up your mind, will you?

WOW! THAT REALLY HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THIS ARGUMENT

What argument? I haven't seen one from you since, well, never.

False accusations, too. My, aren't we jealous. Goodbye forever, DarkCloud!
I didn't know there was yet another line that could be overstepped - but you found one.

[DarkCloud]

I can see how that could be misunderstood-

Mohawks---> Join Iroquois League
Mohawks---> Leave league
Attack League
REjoin League
Leave it
Attack it
Rejoin.
etc.

the Mohawks and Iroquois league was remarkably warlike (Much like the Europeans...)

Goodbye forever, DarkCloud!
I didn't know there was yet another line that

Am I banned?

I am talking about the Iroquois and suddenly you tell me that the Americans didnt do this, the americans didn't do that, you make no sense!

[orange]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Poor little Orange - down the drain he goes

Man, I post a good 500 words bashing everything you believe to be right, and that's your return fire? You should be ashamed to represent your case. Even guy was able to rebut something I said, but not you. You don't even make a point.

Speaking of which, my point Guy and DC, was that it was a European philosophy and that's what it was based on. The Japanese had a similar code, and there was even a theoretical "code of the west" in American times. The Iroquois did not invent or implement such a theory in their society, nor did they have 'knights', the armies that chivalry pertained to.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by orange
Man, I post a good 500 words bashing everything you believe to be right, and that's your return fire? You should be ashamed to represent your case. Even guy was able to rebut something I said, but not you. You don't even make a point.

"Even Guy", huh? Wow, what a ringing endorsement that was.

Speaking of which, my point Guy and DC, was that it was a European philosophy and that's what it was based on. The Japanese had a similar code, and there was even a theoretical "code of the west" in American times. The Iroquois did not invent or implement such a theory in their society, nor did they have 'knights', the armies that chivalry pertained to.

My point was: what good is a philosophy that no one follows? Chivalry existed only in the literature of the period; it did not exist in practice, at all. So what if the Europeans "invented" chivalry; they implimented it no more than the Iroquois did. To invent such a philosophy but not practice it... I don't know, it seems like that civilization is even more primitive--to invent a higher ideal and then do nothing to achieve it. Besides, I've always considered knights to be a product of feudalism, not (nonexistant) chivalry.

Ahh, anyway, we're straying from the point. While I don't agree with a lot of what Rib says, I support the inclusion for the Iroquois, and think it was done for all the right reasons.

[orange]

Originally posted by Guynemer
"Even Guy", huh? Wow, what a ringing endorsement that was.

Wow, that definitely came out wrong. I'm sorry if it offended you (I see by the wink it hasn't) but that's definitely not what I meant. I meant it took someone else to defend her points. Hmmm, guy defending girl...almost Chivalrous

[Dr. Nick]

Excuse me Ribannah, but the period table and what it entails was developed by Mendeleyev, a RUSSIAN, in the second half of the XIXth century. Not by the French... what French person may I ask?

[Dr. Nick]

http://pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/mendeleev.htm

"In 1869, the Russian chemist Mendeleev noted that the repeating patterns of behavior could be arranged in a sequence of elements giving rise to the "Periodic Table" of the elements."

Ergo, the periodic table could not exist before Mendeleyev as there was no idea of periodicity in chemistry.

[orange]

I thought I told you already Hodad...

the Iroquois were already beyond Chemistry...they were on to Advanced Flight

Ballooning that is

[Dr. Nick]

Secondly, gunpowder existed before the US.

Thirdly, horses did exist before the Europeans came and they were mountable. It's just that the north american natives thought they made a better pot roast than a beast of burden and, according to one theory, died of overpredation while they were still a small number.