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The Reason why the Iroquois are in Civ 3

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  • The Reason why the Iroquois are in Civ 3

    With all the bickering over the Iroquois inclusion, I felt compelled to back Firaxis on their decision and give reasons why. I warn you though, this post is somewhat long.

    The Iroquois are famous in history as the most powerful and influential Native Americans in eastern north America. Their Confederacy of six nations, the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora, played a vital role in the development of North America, both before and after the arrival of European settlers.

    Iroquois are among the Native American descendants of the first people of this land. They call themselves the Haudenosaunee - "People who live in the extended longhouse". The name "Iroquois" was given to them by their neighbors (Algonkian speaking people) and then used by Europeans.

    The Five nations -- Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, & Seneca became the Six Nations when the Tuscarora joined in 1712. Members of other Native nations were conquered, were adopted in the 1600 and 1700s, or fled to Iroquois communities to escape from the encroachments of the new white settlers.

    The Iroquis Influence...,

    "The American system is markedly different from that of Britain, the country from which it separated. It encompasses ideas not used before in any successful nation. These definitive qualities did not just appear, however; they were a direct result of contact with the indigenous Americans. Such revered statesmen as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson experienced the lifestyles and beliefs of the natives, specifically the Six Nations of the Iroquois, and incorporated them into the government that they created." - http://web.syr.edu/~bmoriari/review1.html

    "Early Euro-Americans voluntarily adopted methods, lifestyles, artifacts, and ideas from the indigenous people, often in order to survive. Indians in America provided half of the modern world's domesticated food crops, numerous herbal medicines, clothing, transportation pathways and modes, crafts and artifacts, hygiene methods, and thousands of words including place names and ideas of governance that blended ideals of rugged individuality with concern for the common welfare.
    The Iroquois republic had continuously existed since the 14th or 15th century. In 1930, Arthur Pound's Johnson of the Mohawks states, "With the possible exception of the also unwritten British Constitution, deriving from the Magna Charta, the Iroquois Constitution is the longest-going international constitution in the world." Known as "The Great Law of Peace," this orally transmitted constitution describes a federal union of five (later six) Indian nations: Mohawk, Onondagam Seneca, Oneida, Cayuga and the Tuscarora, adopted in 1715. It was only put in writing in 1915 by Arthur C. Parker, archeologist for the State Museum of New York." - http://www.sojourn.org/winter98/html/iroquois.html

    More interesting links to bore you...

    Explore the fact-checked online encyclopedia from Encyclopaedia Britannica with hundreds of thousands of objective articles, biographies, videos, and images from experts.

    Truth, Justice, and the American Way!

  • #2
    Very informative

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    • #3
      The Iroquois did have their own (hieroglyphe) script and they used it to write their own constitution and many other important documents such as treaties.
      Taking into account that the Iroquois as a people (divided over several tribes but with the same culture and language) existed before the nation was formed,
      Toronto (the Seneca village of Taiagon) would be an excellent choice as their capital site in civ3.
      And did you know they had saunas in their houses?
      A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
      Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Ribannah
        The Iroquois did have their own (hieroglyphe) script and they used it to write their own constitution and many other important documents such as treaties.
        Waw, this is new to me, I once asked you but you never answered. If the Iroquois had their own script then they qualify as a civilization for sure!

        Could you perhaps show me a picture or give me a link to these hieroglyphes? They must have been developed independantly of all other scripts and therefore I'm eager to see what they looked like.

        Other native tribes in NA didn't have a script, or am I wrong?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Fiil
          Waw, this is new to me, I once asked you but you never answered. If the Iroquois had their own script then they qualify as a civilization for sure!
          Could you perhaps show me a picture or give me a link to these hieroglyphes? They must have been developed independantly of all other scripts and therefore I'm eager to see what they looked like.
          Here is a replica of the famous Wolf Belt:



          Some more info can be found here. There are literally hundreds of websites about the Iroquois, so maybe there is even better information available.

          Other native tribes in NA didn't have a script, or am I wrong?
          The Algonquin, who are related to the Iroquois, had a similar script, maybe there were more.
          Last edited by Ribannah; October 5, 2001, 08:50.
          A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
          Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute

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          • #6
            People of the longhouse

            The Iroquois lived in longhouses, which were rectangular structures made of tree bark, tree limbs and (I think) some mud to help hold it all together. I toured a reproduced Indian village near where I live and a recreated longhouse was set up there. From the information presented, more than one family lived in a longhouse and something like cots lined the side walls for sleeping. Each longhouse had a fireplace in the middle and a doorway at each end. The problem with the longhouses was that they did not have a opening in the roof to allow for the fire's smoke to vacate the longhouse. The information given at that recreated one stated that many Iroquois tended to develop problems with their eyes due to living in a smoke-filled house. Just thought I'd throw that in. Logan's lament was also posted on a spot at this recreated village. It could very easily be adopted by cynics who believe Civ 3 will be a stinker.
            Your ad here!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ribannah
              Here is a replica of the famous Wolf Belt
              Hmm I'm a bit disappointed if these two men/women and the two wolves(?) are the hieroglyphs.
              These are pictures imo, maybe they have a symbolic meaning and maybe their primal intension is not to resemble nature but to tell a story. But this probably implies for the Spanish cave paintings too.

              I hope there are other hieroglyphs used in a context!

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              • #8
                ...Bring up an old thread and you'll see why I say that the AMERICANS MAY HAVE ONLY MARGINALLY BEEN INSPIRED BY THE IROQUOIS- THE IROQUIOS HAVE LESS REASON TO BE IN THE GAME THAN THE Mississippians, the Olmec, the Maya, or the Aztec.
                -->Visit CGN!
                -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

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                • #9
                  Hi DC, you make it sound like they forced their way in somehow
                  (Btw the Aztecs ARE in the game, in case you forgot.)
                  A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
                  Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DarkCloud
                    ...Bring up an old thread and you'll see why I say that the AMERICANS MAY HAVE ONLY MARGINALLY BEEN INSPIRED BY THE IROQUOIS- THE IROQUIOS HAVE LESS REASON TO BE IN THE GAME THAN THE Mississippians, the Olmec, the Maya, or the Aztec.
                    The only one of the Civs that should be ahead of the Iroquois are the Maya. The Aztecs like the Zulus, were probably put in to create interesting adversaries for the player(it is a game after all). The Olmec were earlier Native Americans and never approached the level of the Iroquois, and the Mississippians , I think the Texans(who were a real Civ), would be much higher on the list than them.
                    Truth, Justice, and the American Way!

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                    • #11
                      Yes, I know the Aztecs are in the game.

                      Does no one know about the Mississipians- the Snake Mound builders? They were highly advanced, at least advanced as the Anasazi and possibly as advanced as the olmec or Maya.

                      Olmecs were in South America.

                      Ribbanah- they did- they are insidious.

                      The Aztec had a high society. And, as well as that, They conquered vast stretches of lands.
                      -->Visit CGN!
                      -->"Production! More Production! Production creates Wealth! Production creates more Jobs!"-Wendell Willkie -1944

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                      • #12
                        OK, let's think about this in Civ terms...

                        Reasons why (in civ) the Native Americans count as barbarians

                        (BTW, I'm not saying they were in real life, just in civ terms).


                        1- They never built cities (they could be represented by a settler wandering round in circles) - they were nomadic.

                        2- They certainly didn't build city improvements.

                        3- They only produced 1 type of military unit (civ2 barbarians anyone?)

                        4- (as if the above weren't reasons enough) They had no united leader of significant unified government.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by red_jon
                          OK, let's think about this in Civ terms...

                          Reasons why (in civ) the Native Americans count as barbarians

                          (BTW, I'm not saying they were in real life, just in civ terms).


                          1- They never built cities (they could be represented by a settler wandering round in circles) - they were nomadic.

                          2- They certainly didn't build city improvements.

                          3- They only produced 1 type of military unit (civ2 barbarians anyone?)

                          4- (as if the above weren't reasons enough) They had no united leader of significant unified government.
                          You make some good points on 1 and 2 , however I'm not sure if your right on 3 and 4, interesting arguement though.
                          Truth, Justice, and the American Way!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DarkCloud
                            The Aztec had a high society. And, as well as that, They conquered vast stretches of lands.
                            The Aztecs, as AoK puts it, were at a cultural dead end. They were simply more advanced barbarians who barely held on to that empire (I bet that...800 men could topple it). Of course there needs to be more civs in America and the Incas couldn't fit on the CivII map.
                            "I agree with everything i've heard you recently say-I hereby applaud Christantine The Great's rapid succession of good calls."-isaac brock
                            "This has to be one of the most impressive accomplishments in the history of Apolyton, well done Chris"-monkspider (Refering to my Megamix summary)
                            "You are redoing history by replaying the civs that made history."-Me

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                            • #15
                              So what if the Incas can't fit on a civ map. They were a reasonably advanced civilization, and I really hope they are in the X-pack. They had a road system, good agriculture, and various settlements. Sounds like a civ to me. In addition, they even worshipped potato gods! Now how cool would that be?!?

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