What do we know about the Iroquois?

[Mahdimael]

Originally posted by Roman


Power to the atheists - there are far too few of us around. Leftist though??? After what happened to your country over the past 50 years or so???

Why are there so few athiests around? Maybe because God keeps smiting you?

j/k, but I couldn't resist.

[Boris Godunov]

[SIZE=1] I am challenging you to open a new thread called "Do the Egyptians belong in the top 16?". After all, this thread is about the Iroquois .

Challenge declined. As I said, I'm tired of arguing over the Egyptians, especially since I still think they should be included in the game. Our argument about them has gotten extremely far removed from Civ3.

With regard to irrigation, my guess is that it was invented (and lost) many times in the prehistoric age. I did not (intend to) claim, that the Egyptians were the first to discover it, just that they discovered it independently and thereby helped advance human skills in agriculture.

Discovered independently, yes. Advanced human skills, no. As has been said before, many times, Egyptian irrigation and agriculture was totally isolated to the Nile valley and died with their civilization. It was utterly dependent on the unique cycle of flooding. The techniques did not advance irrigation of agriculture elsewhere, as the terrain and cycle of the Nile was unique. Egyptian agriculture was unremarkable. However, the agriculture of contemporary and earlier Mesopotamian civilizations was both enduring and very important to successive human advancement.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about my Iroquois sources.

I don't see how I can be more clear: your source was a bad, unscholarly source. You only had one source, that Web page. It had no citations or sources except a radical Web site devoted to a supporter of the First Nations Indeginous Resistance, a terrorist group that partook in an armed assault on a U.S. Fort on October 12, 1998.

Are there facts on the history page? Yes. But the outrageously exaggerated and factually unsupported claims the author makes regarding Iroquois influence over American government and culture show that it is unreliable. You are asking me to prove the source wrong. Well, scholarship does not work that way. It's not an "innocent until proven guilty" system. Or a "correct until proven wrong" system either. Historical writings need to be greatly sourced and documented to be taken seriously. A Historian proves his argument step by step using sources, he does not put up an essay and wait for people to prove it right or wrong.

The source is poor. Now are you sure what I'm saying?

Should the Dog Soldier be their special unit after all?

I do not care one bit. I will not play the Iroquois, and I intend to edit them out in my games in favor of the Ottoman Turks. I will not play them with their dog, I will not play them in a bog. I will not play them on a boat, I will not play them with a goat...

But please, don't judge people by their sources. We don't all have access to all that is available, or the skill to find the most trustworthy when there is so much. Judge people by their reasoning and behaviour!

Your reasoning has led your to cite a very poor source, so I can only assume your reasoning is quite poor as well.

Cheers.

[Ribannah]

Alas, you joined the ranks of the flamers after all .
I have bookmarked over a hundred Iroquois websites (including several fora). Just because I'm not citing them all, doesn't mean I didn't read them!

[Mars]

Well i guess we all know now but the official UU for the iroquois is the mounted horseman

[Ironwood]

Re: Constitution

Originally posted by Adrien
Actually, the reason people say that the US Constitution was inspired by the Iroquois was that it might have been, indirectly.


The first plan for unification came in the wake of the French and Indian war (7 Years War), proposed by Benjamin Franklin.

This idea was called the Albany Plan of Union. While it was widely ignored during its time, delegates at the First and Second Continental Congresses looked back to Franklin, the elder statesmen, and his Albany Plan for ideas.

Franklin was known to be a great fan of the Iroquois. He may very well have based his Albany Plan off the Iroquois Confederacy; many historians credit this as a possibilty.

Hope this helps?

Very interesting. Would you mind citing a source?

I ask that because I would love to read it.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Mahdimael


Why are there so few athiests around? Maybe because God keeps smiting you?

j/k, but I couldn't resist.

There are many more atheists on the Europa Universalis forum. The average age of posters is higher there, though. You know what they say, you get wiser when you mature j/k

[static]

Re: Re: Constitution

Originally posted by Ironwood


Very interesting. Would you mind citing a source?

I ask that because I would love to read it.

Here's one,

http://www.britannica.com/magazine/article?content_id=72594&pager.offset=40

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Martinus

There are many more atheists on the Europa Universalis forum. The average age of posters is higher there, though. You know what they say, you get wiser when you mature j/k

All the atheists on this forum are younger than 21... So much for your theory.


Why would the Americans base it solely off the Iroquois- 1st- the Iroquois constitution wasn't written until after the revolution, and second, there were many writings in England that the Americans read- everyone read John Rousseau's writings! His writings and John Locke's ideas, as well as other peoples' ideas contribuited to the ideas that formed the rhetoric of the American Revolution.

The Iroquois, if a part at all, were but a small part of the Declaration of Independence, or Articles of confed. and they were even a lesser part of the Constitution.

[DarkCloud]

...We know they fought amongst themselves often...

[Ribannah]

... which the Americans never did ...
Btw, the Iroquois constitution was documented when it was made, just not in English. IIRC around 1900 it was translated by the Iroquois themselves.

[d_dudy]

i wonder if they made the cotw iroquois because of this thread?

never know

[DarkCloud]

The Mohawks (??) Were in and out of the confederation often.

Fighting among oneself... This clearly states that they were seperate tribes allied into one... There was no Iroquois tribe, there WAS an Iroquois confederation... it was a bit more advanced than an alliance, but little more than that... If you must- you may state that the Articles of Confederation were like the Iroquois league, but not the Constitution.

In all countries civil wars, British (Theological... sort of...Catholic[Alleged James]/Protestant (Cromwell)), German (Religious), American (Ideological) The country was united together... The reason the Confederacy felt they could secede was the statement:

"These united states"
not:
"The United states"

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DarkCloud

"These united states"
not:
"The United states"

Yes, and unfortunately, there is still misinterpretation of this abounding today in the U.S. People clamor, falsely, about "State's Rights." There is no such thing as "State's Rights." Only individuals are given rights under the Constitution. States are given powers, and those powers can and should be limited by Federal Law, under the Constitution. But people will believe what they want to further their agendas.

What would you consider to be the German civil war? I'm interested to hear.

Cheers.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
What would you consider to be the German civil war? I'm interested to hear.

Cheers.

I think he means either the 30-Years War (1618-1648) or the religious wars ended with the peace of Augsburg of 1555. Both pretty gruesome and bloody periods in history of Europe

[Fiil]

Originally posted by Martinus
I think he means either the 30-Years War (1618-1648) or the religious wars ended with the peace of Augsburg of 1555. Both pretty gruesome and bloody periods in history of Europe

I believe so too!

But I think Boris' point was that these are not civil wars as Germany was not united at that time. It was wars fought between independant states.

I've heard WWI and WWII being refered to as the European Civil Wars by some Africans and South Americans too.