Are the Civilizaion abilities balanzed?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Lockstep

I stand rebuked. I was just writing off the top of my head. I should have said something to that affect

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by UberKruX


quite.

but i think expanisionist/militarist would be a bit better

The great thing about expansionist/militaristic is that you could probably go for a total conquest right from the start and never look back. Use the goody huts to give yourself a great head start. When your first scout finds other civs, immediately send your military to beat them up before they have a chance to get stong. Get yourself on a roll and never look back.

The truth is that I just love these special abilities because every type of player can see something really cool in any of them! Every different type fo player can find a combo that suits them like a glove!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by UberKruX


quite.

but i think expanisionist/militarist would be a bit better

'em are the Zulus!

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
Lockstep

I stand rebuked. I was just writing off the top of my head. I should have said something to that affect

No offence, Lawrence of Arabia.

[Theben]

Extra commerce in the city center? Sounds like a new ICS problem to me.

[TechWins]

I think all of the abilities are balanced but could be of different value in different situations. If you are going to be a cultural freak then being religious will be of great value. If you are to be a warmonger then militariastic will be of great value to you. If you are to be a scientific expansionists then expansionist and scientific will be of great value to you. All of the abilities are equally balanced but depending on what method of playing you took will be of different values.

[Dimorier Maximus]

Originally posted by Theben
Extra commerce in the city center? Sounds like a new ICS problem to me.

The only way to stop ICS is to limit the number of cities any one civ can place to a certain number, say 25. Otherwise people will keep putting cities, and putting them close.

Wait, there is another way I just thought of, and I think it is much better. Simply don't allow anyone to place a city if it overlaps with any other cities in more than 3-5 squares or something like that.

As for me, my favorite combo is the industrious-commercial one-two punch. Extra trade and production in the city center, faster working workers, lower levels of corruption, and I start with the Alphabet and Masonry. French, here I come!

[Sandman]

Scientific sounds much too strong.

Three free technologies.
Cheaper libraries, universities and labs.

And don't scientific improvements generate culture as well?
Not to mention a headstart at building wonders.

[saracen31]

Scientific sounds the strongest to me - suits my style of play great.

[War4ever]

so far those indian war elephants are looking nice to me .... being a warmonger and all while you scramble for resources , the indians will be crossing the alps

[Steve Clark]

Are any of you concerned that chosing a civ to play, with its predefined attributes, will limit strategy and replayability?

Are any of you concerned that any of the AI civs, with its predefined attributes, will become predictable?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I Civ Specific Abilities

Militaristic

Any militaristic Civ gets either Warrior Code or the Wheel. That means that they start off with good defense (archers) or good attack (chariots) In war, their units will quickly gain status. Although they get an improvement reduction cost for military buildings, there aren’t a lot of them (barracks, city walls, SAM…) This leads me to think that this is on of the least useful Civ specific ability (CSA)It starts affecting your units promotion right away, but the only real time that this is useful is during war (when your units are quickly promoted) and during peace after Nationalism (since nationalism means that you must choose your unit readiness, being at peace will still mean that your military buildings will cost what it would take at the middle setting, assuming that there are 3 settings.) The militaristic Civs are the Aztecs, Germans, Romans, Zulus, Japanese and Chinese. Could be interesting to see how the Chinese and Japanese fight it out. The Chinese have and early UU and could do enough damage to make the Japanese fall far behind. But if they fail, then Japans later UU (probably Samurai) would then have the advantage.

Commercial

Any city who belongs to a commercial Civ will get extra commerce in its city center. Even though it is not specified, it probably is not more than +2 trade. The lower corruption helps keep the profits easier, especially in early government forms like tyranny and monarchy. Alphabet is one of the most important techs to get at an early age. It opens up a lot of other things. The commercial CSA of any Civ will most likely start working very well in the Middle Ages/Renaissance, when most of your cities have marketplaces, and you have quite a few cities too. More money in the coffers also signifies a larger standing army, so a commercial Civ can have more soldiers but spend less on upkeep than another Civ proportionally. Since your commerce is pooled nationally, the more cities you have, the more global commerce you have. Commercial Civs will always seek to expand towards resources. The commercial Civs are the English, French, Greeks, Persians, Indians.

Expansionist

This is probably one of the most rewarding CSAs that there are along with commercial and industrious. The advance of pottery means that you can grow your cities faster and helps protect the grain. You start with a scout, which is probably the equivalent of a civ2 explorer. Also, you get lots of good goodies from the barbarian villages. Now, in my book, barbarian villages does not mean huts. It means that you have to fight to kill the barbarian encampments. From that I guess that you could plunder some stuff. All by itself, the Expansionist CSA is not that good. But when its coupled with anything, it becomes a force to be reckoned with. The usefulness of the affects of expansionist decrease in time. The expansionist Civs are the Iroquoi, Americans, Russians, English and Zulu. Both the Americans and the Iroquois are expansionist. It should be an interesting game when you play on the real world map.

Scientific

Probably one of the best CSAs, a scientific civ starts out with Bronze Working. This means that right off the bat, they have a great defensive unit, the phalanx. Each science building costs less to build and at the turn of each age, they get a free tech. This might be a tad overpowering, except that maybe militaristic Civs will steamroll these guys. The affects work during the whole game. After nationalism, during war time, the cost of normal peach buildings increases, but a scientific Civ can still build science buildings for probably the same price as a non scientific Civ at peace. The scientific civs are the Russians (shouldn’t be here, should be militarists. That would make for an interesting game against the Germans.), Germans, Greeks, Babylonians, Persians.

Religious

My first thought about this CSA was that it sucked. My second was that it was good. It gets quick, early easy culture with ceremonial burial (temple) and all religious buildings cost less to build. This means that this gives a lot of quick culture which is essential for a quick start and a quick grab at a bunch of resources. No anarchy between governments is not that much of a bonus, unless you are constantly changing forms of government. This CSA affects you throughout the game and it’s a pretty solid one at that. The religious Civs are the Aztecs, Iroquois, Egyptians, Babylonians, Indians and Japanese.

Industrious

This ranks among one of the best, with commercial, in my mind. Your workers work quicker and complete tasks a lot faster. Your city center gets extra production (probably not more than +2) and you start with Masonry. Coupled with extra production, you can quickly build city walls and protect your cities at a very early age, while your waiting for your population to get to 3 so you can build a settler. Since the workers work faster, your cities will also grow faster if you put irrigation in the right spot. Since production is not cumulative, this CSA is not as strong as commercial. Never less, it is still a great CSA if you want to protect your cities when they are most vulnerable. The Industrious Civs are the Americans, French, Romans, Egyptians, and Chinese.

II The CSA combos which are too strong.

Commercial/Scientific

Lets take as a case study the Greeks. They are commercial/scientific and have a UU of Hoplite

Extra commerce in the city center means that they will make more money at the start of the game. The lower corruption will also help keep more profits, especially during Tyranny. These both help tremendously at the start of the game especially since science requires money and armies require money.

Scientific buildings, especially things like libraries, etc, are cheaper and boost an already high science rate (due to the more money your collection) Hoplite almost certainly comes with Bronze Working, so the Greeks get their UU right off the bat (although it takes a while to get a colony or expand the borders,) The hoplite is a purely defensive unit, which will dominate the game until the middle ages.

To trigger a Golden Age, you need to build 1 or 2 wonders which satisfy "Commercial" and "Scientific" Already in the ancient age, there is the Colossus "+1 trade in squares which already have it" and "Great Library" (for any 1 tech which 2 Civs have...) So, that means that during the Golden Age, the city center will be producing +2 Trade, the surrounding terrain will have +1 trade, and less corruption

As you can clearly see, this gives huge advantages to the Greeks. Now, this may well be balanced out later in the game by other Civ's specialties, but I think that they may get a too big of a lead which will be insurmountable.

Commercial/Industrious

Lets take as a case study the French. They are a commercial/ Industrious Civ who’s UU is probably some sort of knight.

Extra commerce in the city center means that they will make more money at the start of the game. The lower corruption will also help keep more profits, especially during Tyranny. These both help tremendously at the start of the game especially since science requires money and armies require money. More cities means more commerce since its pooled nationally.

Faster workers and Masonry means that they will have good defense at the beginning of the game. Extra production means that every thing that they build will be built quicker. With their large coffers and quicker productions, the French can get lots of science and have a big standing army. More production also means faster improvements like temples, which increase your culture and expand borders.

The way it looks to me, this is also too strong. Maybe it will balance out later, but I would never play the French. Its too easy.

III CSA combos which didn’t make the cut

Militaristic/ Commercial

This one is obvious. Since you get more money from the extra commerce, and you have faster promotions, this would lead to a very large army very quickly.



Scientific/ Industrious

Hmmm. This one is less clear … maybe its cause with the extra production and reduced science building costs, it would be too easy to build these libraries. So then why do they have Religious/ Industrious

IV Went the Day Well? *

I am a Civ purist. When Firaxis wanted to implement UUs I was completely against it. I wanted to be able to mold my Civ to whatever abilities I wanted. I wanted special units, but I wanted to be able to research them as Minor Techs. What Firaxis wants you to do is put you in the feet of another ruler, with all of the historical parameters which were stacked for and against him, and see how you can do. For me now, this is fine. I think that the CSAs are well balanced and I’m glad that they caught the Militaristic/Commercial problem

*With apologizes to Len Deighton, author of Blood, Tears, and Folly.