Should there be more "Civilization Abilities"?

[Jeje2]

In Civ3 every nation gets two special abilities out of six possible.
I just posted a list with the possiple options in this thread.

As we can count there are (6*5/2 = 15 unigue combinations).
And as for now all except one is already used with the 16 nations to come.

So should there in the expansion pack be a seventh civilization ability?
(Thus making 7*6/2 = 21unigue combinations)
Opinions?

If yes, then the difficult question is of course what this seventh "civilization ability" should be? And what free tech it should give and which special effects?

And this isn't a simple problem. Just look at this picture, you can see that there are seven first level techs. And all of them are already used. (Militaristic gives either Warrior Code or The Wheel) So we would have to split these, or have more first level techs in the expansion pack.

Any Opinions?

[lockstep]

I started a thread about this topic several weeks ago, but didn´t get many replies (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=24355).

Abstract: I advocate at least the introduction of "fertile" as a civ-specific factor in Civ3 (Free tech - pottery; Effect 1 - extra food in city center; Effect 2 - production costs reduced for aqueducts and sewer systems). And given the 16 civilizations already in the game, I´d consider the Chinese as a scientific and fertile civ, the Indians as a religious and fertile civ.

(edit: spelling)

[Provost Harrison]

I think fertile would be a good choice, or some equivalent with these attributes. I can't really think of anything else that would fit well...

[Saint Marcus]

I was thinking the same thing (though I'd call them agricultural instead of fertile).

Another suggestion, how about Maritiem?

[Marcus Agrippa]

An excellent idea... fertile civs would have extra large populations. Might I suggest, for the bonus for fertile:

All fertile civ cities can grow 25% larger than would otherwise be allowed... eg A city without an Aqueduct could grow to 8*1.25= 10.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Marcus Agrippa
All fertile civ cities can grow 25% larger than would otherwise be allowed... eg A city without an Aqueduct could grow to 8*1.25= 10.

Good idea. This should make 'fertile' or 'agricultural' civs even more attractive for the player, provided aqueducts and sewer systems are real limiting factors during the medieval and industrial times of a Civ3 game. In fact, something like this was done in SMAC, where the peacekeepers could grow their bases to size 9 (instead 7) without hab complexes.

I don´t get it why Firaxis didn´t include a fertile/agricultural civ-specific ability. It was one of SMAC´s SE factors. It provides interesting gameplay options. It is more politically correct than the 'militaristic' ability. With the modification suggested by Marcus Agrippa, it should not even stimulate ICS ...

[aaglo]

The "fertile" special ability feels good, I agree.

Here's another idea (not that good )
Because there is a "militaristic" special ability, why there can't be a "peaceful" special ability? I know they are not the opposites, but close. And peaceful ability could for example gain like 20 or 25 % increase in cultural values (would that be too much?). It might also be dependant on the current diplomatic states (mainly war/peace; if in war with someone > decreases and the opposite).
So could this be a possible special ability?

[lockstep]

Originally posted by aaglo
Because there is a "militaristic" special ability, why there can't be a "peaceful" special ability? I know they are not the opposites, but close. And peaceful ability could for example gain like 20 or 25 % increase in cultural values (would that be too much?).

IIRC, the 'religious' ability, which reduces costs for religious buildings and therefore is suited for a cultural strategy, also helps boosting your civ´s reputation. OTOH, this naturally doesn´t apply in multiplayer games ...

If something similar to SMAC´s council (the U.N.) is included in Civ3, 'peaceful' could be an ability that gives you a vote multiplier for global politics and would be very helpful when striving for diplomatic (as opposed to cultural) victory. (Again, SMAC´s peacekeeper faction crosses one´s mind.) A possible game balancing problem is that this ability would not be operative in ancient and perhaps in medieval times.

BTW, as the discussion about additional civ-specific abilities is more lively now than a month ago, I may as well quote my former suggestions:

- "Vigilant": Free tech - alphabet; Effect 1 - spies have a higher rate of success; Effect 2 - reduced civil disorder due to warfare;

- "Close to nature" (for lack of a better term): Free tech - ceremonial burial; Effect 1: reduced pollution; Effect 2 - discovery of ressources more likely.

Some remarks: It may be questionable to introduce an "environmental" factor that will come into effect only late in the game. Also, a "vigilance" factor is likely to be termed as a "racial template" - all the more as a "vigilant" civilization would be a "bad guy" in a typical Civ game.

Note that I assumed a Civ2-like espionage system when talking about 'vigilance'. Anyway, I like the thought of a Civ that somewhat resembles the Darloks, MOO´s spying masters.

Any comments?

[aaglo]

About the peaceful ability
IIRC, the cultural level of the city (cultural value?) affects on many things: revolting and "rejoining" of conquered cities, mood of neighbouring cities and city borders. Now, if cultural value of religious buildings and wonders were 20% higher than average, that might be a good advantage.
But how is it actually: does a finishing of a certain building (a temple for example) expand the city borders, or does the borders according to the accumulated culture??? I think it was the first, but i'm not sure.
If it is the latter, then it would mean earlier expansion of borders... right?

Now for the second advantage: it might be improved diplomatic skills (pretty dull), reduced cost on settlers (), reduced rioting (just what the doctor ordered ). Who knows, please speak up!

[lockstep]

Originally posted by aaglo
Because there is a "militaristic" special ability, why there can't be a "peaceful" special ability?

Right now a very simple reason occured to me: Firaxis´six abilities can be combined reasonably. In contrast to that, 'militaristic/peaceful' doesn´t really make sense.

[aaglo]

Originally posted by lockstep


Right now a very simple reason occured to me: Firaxis´six abilities can be combined reasonably. In contrast to that, 'militaristic/peaceful' doesn´t really make sense.

Yes, I know that. And I thought of it too, and to me it would not be a problem
But I am just being stubborn, I want that peaceful ability

[Felch]

How about diplomatic. It could be a French ability, as opposed to cowardly. I guess you could be a diplomatic militarist, seeing as how America loves bombing the shet out of countries and then diplomatically telling Europe to shove it its ass. But really it's a French thing, I guess. It could give bonuses in trade and treaties with the AI, and be utterly useless in MP. Just like the Eiffel Tower wonder.

[lockstep]

I don´t want a civ-specific ability that is completely useless in multiplayer. (Who said there will be multiplayer? ... sorry, bad joke.) However, if 'diplomatic' would include a vote multiplier for a SMAC-style U.N. council (which I assume will be included in Civ3), it would be an interesting choice. Unfortunately, at the moment 'diplomatic' bears to much resemblance to 'religious' in gameplay terms.

edit: spelling

[Saint Marcus]

* Agricultural
* Maritiem
* Diplomatic

[Gramphos]

I hope the editors will allow us to add abilities on our own.
The only problem doing it (if they add the ability) should be to make enough options to set to make new.

To have a Diplomatic ability you would maybe have to set one of the effects to other nations are quicker to forget bad things you've done. And Other civs has easier to accept your deals.
Selecting a starting tech shouldn't be a problem, but setting the two effects could be a problem making customizable.

If we can't add abilities on out own they must add some abilities to an expansion. If we can add on our own, it would still be good with new abilities, and maybe also new things to set for own made abilities in the editors.