Should there be more "Civilization Abilities"?

[Jeje2]

Trader
Free tech: The Wheel (Thus only Warrior Code for Militaristic)
Effect 1: Redused cost of building caravans (or whatever they are)
Effect 2: Bonus form tradepacts for city center

This would still be different from Commersial and a nation with Trading&Commersial could exist.

Comments, please...

[Gramphos]

Everything depends on what the meaning of 'Free Tech' is. It could be a tech that you will get for free as soon as you have all the prerequires, and in that way we could have more then the first column tech to choose from.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Jeje2
Trader
Free tech: The Wheel (Thus only Warrior Code for Militaristic)
Effect 1: Redused cost of building caravans (or whatever they are)
Effect 2: Bonus form tradepacts for city center

This would still be different from Commersial and a nation with Trading&Commersial could exist.

Comments, please...

There will be no Caravans. All trade are made with the trade network. That must be changed to something else; Maybe no upkeep for Marketplaces.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Gramphos
I hope the editors will allow us to add abilities on our own.

I hope so, too, but that would mean a very high level of adaptability. IIRC, even in SMAC you could tweak the factions abilities, but not change the subjacent SE mechanism.

Everything depends on what the meaning of 'Free Tech' is. It could be a tech that you will get for free as soon as you have all the prerequires, and in that way we could have more then the first column tech to choose from.

I agree. I think that defining of the effects of a civ-specific ability is far more important than mulling over its free tech.

To have a Diplomatic ability you would maybe have to set one of the effects to other nations are quicker to forget bad things you've done. And Other civs has easier to accept your deals.

While the second effect is also included in the 'religious' ability, I like your first idea very much. If the U.N. is included in Civ3, that would ensue that a 'diplomatic' ability is sufficiently different from 'religious'. Let´s see ...

- "Diplomatic": Free tech - alphabet; Effect 1 - reduced ostracism due to atrocities and espionage; Effect 2 - vote multiplier in the U.N. council

To this, add my favourite:

- "Fertile (agricultural)": Free tech - pottery; Effect 1 - extra food in city center; Effect 2 - enlarged city size without aqueducts or sewer systems

Mark L - your 'maritime' ability sounds interesting (SMAC´s pirates crosses my mind), but could you specify the effects?

Jeje2 - I think that 'trader' would bear to much resemblance to the 'commercial' ability (after all, there are no caravans in Civ3).

BTW, there are 28 possible combinations to choose 2 civ-specific abilities out of 8 ... sufficient for a substantial expansion pack ...

[Jeje2]

Lockstep:
You may be right about Trader being too close to commersial.

I also like the agricultural, but I wouldn't like to allow bigger cities. One has to be careful so a single civilization ability don't become to strong (=unbalansed). So skill 2 could be instead something posive againgt hunger for example. (Ex. City undernurishment halved. So if a nomal city would have a situation of -2food/turn a agricultural civilization would have only -1/turn)

Maritime:
Free tech: Map Making (after you discover Writing&Pottery)
Skill 1: Increased sight at sea
Skill 2: Production costs reduced for Naval Units

[lockstep]

Jeje2, so far we have only general ideas even about the effects of Firaxis´civ-specific abilities. 'Extra commerce in city centers' (commercial) or 'workers work faster' (industrious) doesn´t tell us how far-reaching these effects are. Therefore, I wouldn´t exclude an effect from the outset because he is potentially unbalancing.

BTW, in SMAC the peacekeepers could grow their bases to size 9 (instead 7) without hab complexes (the equivalent of aqueducts), and most SMAC players seem to think that they are a reasonably balanced faction alltogether.

About the 'maritime' ability: Isn´t it possible that a civ is stuck on a medium-sized continent amidst oceans, so that naval units can go nowhere in the early game (that is, without the Lighthouse wonder)? Did you intend that? (Note that this problem also occurs with Firaxis´'expansionist' ability.)

[lockstep]

Originally posted by lockstep
If the U.N. is included in Civ3, that would ensue that a 'diplomatic' ability is sufficiently different from 'religious'. Let´s see ...

- "Diplomatic": Free tech - alphabet; Effect 1 - reduced ostracism due to atrocities and espionage; Effect 2 - vote multiplier in the U.N. council

U.N. council has been confirmed by Firaxis (http://www.civ3.com/asktheteam_091401.cfm). I suggest that a 'diplomatic' civ´s vote multiplier also lowers the requirements to gain a council position. (E.g. with a multiplier of 1.25, a 'diplomatic' civ would only need to control 20% of the world´s territory or population.)

[aaglo]

"Ancient" ability-
*Civ gets a head start in culture - like 20 culture points or smthng. That would result as earlier expansion of borders...
*Civ gets an additional settler and worker - representing the "older nation" (This may be too close to the expansionistic ability).
*A city of an ancient civilization never completely assimilates to the conquering civ - result is extra "drones" or "unhappines" for eternity....

[JellyDonut]

Originally posted by lockstep
Right now a very simple reason occured to me: Firaxis´six abilities can be combined reasonably. In contrast to that, 'militaristic/peaceful' doesn´t really make sense.

I never found 'religious/scientific' to make much sense, but I guess that's just the atheist in me talking. And there would be no 'militaristic/peaceful' civ if we cut it out of the game, i.e. it could be one of the 5 combinations not used. But I still really like the fertile ability (although I would have to agree with Mark L and suggest it be changed to agricultural). Maybe someday I will replace militaristic with agricultural...militaristic can fit for every one of the Civ 3 civs at one point or another, and I don't like the idea of stereotyping entire civilizations as militaristic...

[krzysiek]

And how about disabilities or penalties?
For example:
Russia - more unhappy citizens (Tzars and then totalitarism)
Zulus - can't build cities near north and south pole (they are from Africa)
Roman - increased corruption (large empire)
India - weaker economy (majority of population are very poor)

Sorry if I offended some of you. My apologies.
That's the point. It is too controversial.
Firaxis won't do that because people would feel offended.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by krzysiek
Zulus - can't build cities near north and south pole (they are from Africa)

But serioulsy, if Africans can't build cities near the poles, how come Northern European civs could build cities in Africa and near the equator? Civ games are about rewriting history you know.

[Juggernaut]

Yes. The more distinct, the merrier.

[cyril25376]

I don't like the fertile (agricultural) ability, because I am afraid it does unbalance the game. You are getting pop points to easy. Think of the possibility of ICS

[knott]

Fertile is ridiculous. Roman was militaristic, England was industrial and China is fertile . It make no sense.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by cyril25376
I don't like the fertile (agricultural) ability, because I am afraid it does unbalance the game. You are getting pop points to easy. Think of the possibility of ICS

Maybe you´re right and this is the reason why Firaxis didn´t include an 'agricultural' ability. OTOH, the effect of 'additional food in the city centre' (wich certainly encourages ICS) could be replaced with something that allows only big cities to grow faster.

Originally posted by knott
Fertile is ridiculous. Roman was militaristic, England was industrial and China is fertile . It make no sense.

Some Apolytoners have always termed the civ-specific abilities 'racial templates'. I don´t think so. However, I feel that Firaxis 'militaristic' ability is more questionable than the suggested 'agricultural' (or 'fertile') ability.

(BTW, China is 'militaristic' in Civ3. Now THAT is ridiculous!)