The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[yellfromhell]

King of Russlin,
1) Every person has culture (I say this because you said "It's sad that other cultures are either too primitive to have any culture". Its imposible to live outside any form of culture because thats the main difference between us and the other animals. The bees have a society, and so the ants, but they dont have culture.
2) A culture is not worse or better because a person from other culture judges it. There`s an enormous probability that a person inserted in one culture wont trully understand the logic that holds a different culture. There cant be complete understanding in the clash of 2 different logics.
3) A culture is not worse or better because of its 'weakness' or power to impose itself over other cultures. Certainly there are weak and powerfull cultures, but that isnt the only parameter to take in account. One thing that can be said about culture is that is what makes us possible to adapt ourselves to a certain atmosphere, circunstance, sorroundings, ambient, etc, and to transform all this to improve our life conditions. Therefore, a culture may be weaker than another in terms of power to impose itself over others, but may also be more suitable for certain circunstances than the powerfull one, or may be more respectful for the enviroment, or may be more pacific, etc, etc, all extremelly good thinks that deserve to be considered too.
Hugs
Yellfromhell

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
They never really wanted to contact the West, so they aren't influential in our (American) history. They didn't want to get involved with us unless it was for guns. In fact, they would only trade with the Arabs, and the Arabs traded the goods to Europe. That was the only way we knew about the East, besides Marco Polo going there. And he was very lucky to make it there, as well as come back alive.

The West before the 15th century was barbaric and backward, there wasn't a hell lot to be gained by contacting the West. Certainly the Mongols preferred to participate in the election of their Khans than looting the West in 1241.

The geographic distance also played a role why the Far East had to little contact with the Far West before the Age of Sails. Until a safe naval route could be opened, a journey of 6,000+ miles was simply too hazardous, as you already pointed out with the Marco Polo example.

In the end, it was the Eastern arrogance that doomed their past dominance, a similar arrogance you showed in your posts. Fortunately, not every American thinks like you, because if that happens, you repeat the same mistakes made other cultures in the past.

The East is still very isolationist. They don't even teach Kung Fu in GA, and you would have to go to Tibet or China learn it. I think Eastern culture will be taught more when they want it to be taught. For now, they don't want to mess with us.

Why do you think the East is isolationist? How about the Americans are being isolationist? Your attitude shows that you don't care about other cultures and also never bothers to find out more. Karate schools are everywhere in the US, there is even one I know of in a small city called Boulder.

What do you think where your shoes, clothes, toys, TVs, stereos, computer parts(except processors), and steels are made? They are not made here in the US, but in China, Malaysia, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan. I'm 90% sure that the motherboard of the computer you are posting to the Apolyton from is Made in Taiwan.

As I already suggested, learn more about the world around you, then you will be respected. With knowledge comes the power.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless

However, I'll concede that unlike Romans, Chinese, and many others, Aztecs didn't add much value to the knowledge they inherited. But still, I think without much value added, Aztecs have achieved far more than Iroquois and co who couldn't even build something called 'City'.

While the Iroquois may not have contributed ancient temple sites, sacrificial artifacts, and tons of silver/gold loot, they did contribute concepts and ideas that caused the existence of the United States and modern democracy.

The basic concept for a single nation formed and empowered by smaller subnations who retain their individuality came from the Iroquois. They also contributed to the concepts and ideas of freedom and gender equality.

When the founding fathers of the US were deciding on a system of government, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and George Washington were all familiar with the Iroquois system and agreed it was the best suited for the new nation's needs.

Other political philosophers such as Locke, Roussea, More, and Hobbes studied and were influenced by the Iroquois' concepts and later both Marx and Engels drew on Iroquois models to support their theories and designs.

While they may not have been the largest or most 'civilized' of the North American tribes they did have a profound cultural impact on Western Civilization.

How many Western Nations are still ruled directly by Monarchs?

All hail Liechtenstein! Yay!

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

While the Iroquois may not have contributed ancient temple sites, sacrificial artifacts, and tons of silver/gold loot, they did contribute concepts and ideas that caused the existence of the United States and modern democracy.

The basic concept for a single nation formed and empowered by smaller subnations who retain their individuality came from the Iroquois. They also contributed to the concepts and ideas of freedom and gender equality.

When the founding fathers of the US were deciding on a system of government, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and George Washington were all familiar with the Iroquois system and agreed it was the best suited for the new nation's needs.

Other political philosophers such as Locke, Roussea, More, and Hobbes studied and were influenced by the Iroquois' concepts and later both Marx and Engels drew on Iroquois models to support their theories and designs.

While they may not have been the largest or most 'civilized' of the North American tribes they did have a profound cultural impact on Western Civilization.

How many Western Nations are still ruled directly by Monarchs?

All hail Liechtenstein! Yay!

Can you prove your assertions that the great Western thinkers derived many of their concepts from Iroquois?

[Ribannah]

What is there to prove? Read their works, they were not exactly shy to mention their admiration of the Iroquois.
Why don't you just Google on "Friedrich Engels Iroquois", for starters.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Can you prove your assertions that the great Western thinkers derived many of their concepts from Iroquois?

Originally posted by Ribannah
What is there to prove? Read their works, they were not exactly shy to mention their admiration of the Iroquois.
Why don't you just Google on "Friedrich Engels Iroquois", for starters.

Ribannah is correct, they specifically mention in word and actually write down the word 'Iroquois' in their own writings. (although it's probably spelled different than in English, but then again Iroquois did originate from the French).

Ben Franklin tried for 20 years to get the colonies to adopt a confederation similiar to the Iroquois BEFORE the Decalaration of Independence. Read ANY transcript of his debates on the topic recorded from the Continental Congress or his debates and bill, that was eventually defeated in the Albany Congress.

If you want me to write down the page numbers and paragraphs, you'll have to wait as I don't currently don't have time to take a vacation and document every mention of the word 'Iroqouis' in all of the above mentioned authors writings.

You can do an internet search of "Iroquois" and either "Declaration of Independence", "Ben Franklin" (definitely their most avid supporter), or "Confederation" or any of those other thinkers mentioned above.

The fact that our government was based on the Iroquois Confederation isn't anything new in the US, we've always been pretty straight forward about it. Unfortunately, our textbooks rarely mention anything about Native Americans other than they sold Manhattan for a bunch of beads and then they killed Custer (not sure if that was in retaliation for the beads). I've been fortunate enough to volunteer/work with Red Earth (the Native American inter-tribal history and culture organization in the US) for the last 12 years, one of the few perks to living in Oklahoma.

Extremely off topic, as if this Iroquois discussion has anything to do with Korea, Ben Franklin continued to support the Confederation even after it became obvious that a stronger central government and less autonomy for the states was needed to secure the stability of the US. Frankilin lost that battle and the Constitution of United States was the result.

It was exactly that lack of strong central authority that destroyed the Iroquois Confederacy. Which is to say the Iroquois didn't invent Modern Democracy all by themselves, many others added their concepts and refinements along the way.

[Lord Merciless]

Interesting. Do they teach this history in American schools? I went to high school in Europe.

[Q Classic]

Well, they do teach history. But unless you go to a good school, i.e., one in the city, with strong community support, with much funding, you prolly will get a piss-poor education in it, as evidenced by KoR.

Besides, American textbooks tend to focus entirely on western history; somewhat understandable, since american history is that of the west-- but instead of calling it "History of Western Civilization" or the like, they still call it "World History"-- and do so, by putting in two to three token chapters about africa and maybe two on asia.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
Well, they do teach history. But unless you go to a good school, i.e., one in the city, with strong community support, with much funding, you prolly will get a piss-poor education in it, as evidenced by KoR.

Some of the younger (16 and under) members posting here are from small private schools which tend to concentrate on a very specific and somewhat biased curriculum.

Originally posted by Q Cubed
Besides, American textbooks tend to focus entirely on western history; somewhat understandable, since american history is that of the west-- but instead of calling it "History of Western Civilization" or the like, they still call it "World History"-- and do so, by putting in two to three token chapters about africa and maybe two on asia.

My high school was in a small town of about 45,000, but I don't think any American High Schools deviate much from Western Civilization in the history classes. Even in college, courses on Eastern Civilization are very rare.

Which is sad because the Orient and Africa have quite a bit of history that most Americans never learn about.

[Q Classic]

very true, genghis. we are in agreement, then, about the sad state of historical education in america?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Historical? How about ALL education in America.

Not a day goes by that I don't walk in to a store and the register rings up some total like $10.05. I hand the young cashier a $20 bill and nickel. The cashier will look at me all confused, hand me the nickel and say "I don't need this, its only $10.05 and the $20 is enough."

Then the cashier promptly hands me my change of $9.95.

Whose bright idea was it to do away with grades and tests in our public education system. Yeah, some kids got held back a grade and suffered a blow to their self esteem. But when then graduated they COULD READ!

What's America's illiteratcy rate now 28%?

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Historical? How about ALL education in America.

Not a day goes by that I don't walk in to a store and the register rings up some total like $10.05. I hand the young cashier a $20 bill and nickel. The cashier will look at me all confused, hand me the nickel and say "I don't need this, its only $10.05 and the $20 is enough."

Then the cashier promptly hands me my change of $9.95.

Whose bright idea was it to do away with grades and tests in our public education system. Yeah, some kids got held back a grade and suffered a blow to their self esteem. But when then graduated they COULD READ!

What's America's illiteratcy rate now 28%?

Yeah, but other countries have their shares of morons, too, if not more. It appears to me that every country is bashing their own education system, whether it's China, Germany, Italy, or Japan.

You have to recognize that the American education system actually improved some over the liberal excesses from the 70s to the early 90s, and that America still has the best universities in the world.

[Lord Merciless]

Aro, I saw your cartoons. They are very nicely drawn, but I don't understand anything.

[Q Classic]

LM, except, see, most of the other first-world nations have decent edu. systems at the elem. and high levels.

anyway, i didn't exactly mean for this thread to get into education, or latin america, or eurocivs...

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
What's America's illiteratcy rate now 28%?

Just for the record its 3%. But apparently the entire 3% live within a 1 mile radius of me.

I'm not referring to morons about the example earlier. Those cashiers rarely seem like idiots they simply cannot do ANY math any their heads. These kids are the product of the mid 80's and 90's. The kids from the 70's to early 80's turned out fine.

Morons are the 2-3 people per week that I see in the lobby of the office building I work at that stand around nonchalantly and wait for someone with technical knowhow to activate the 'magic' of the elevator.

I'm serious. We have a very large group of people in the US that cannot comprehend either:

1. The basic concept of buttons: if you push it something will happen.

2. Up arrow means up. Down arrow means down.

OR

3. Think that only 'sky' people are allowed to activate elevator machines and they must wait for one of these elite citizens to escort them into the elevator.

I am a proud citizen of the elite class of "sky" people.