The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[Veracitas]

I was in Corea to study at Seoul National University for the semester. Definitely worth the time...

But anyway, good luck on your work, there (from what i've seen from this thread alone, seems like u got a ton of ideas alreayd, lol)....hope all works out for the best, in any case.

[Q Classic]

the korean extraciv pack has been updated.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38340

[ron_neptune]

I am a Singaporean, and i can tell you that the most significant influence on Chinese-dominated countries can only come from China, Japan and Korea.

Just look at the current Pop culture in East Asia. Everyone is looking towards Korea. Korea is currently the "in" thing. In East Asia, we face "bombardment" of Korean Pop Culture. From music to drama, Koreans are replacing Japaneses as the "in" thing at this point of time.

Despite that, Korean culture have been so significant that if you are a player of Age of Empires II, you will know that Korean is a civilisation under the game and the one of the unique unit is the Turtle Ship.

[romelus]

this has gotta be the longest and most emotionally charged thread i've ever read, i read most of it anyway. there have been many issues that i agree or disagree with, and i'm not going to address those details. the arguments were interesting to read until the name calling started between yin and mark. to stay with the topic, here's what i think about korea in civ3

1. whether or not it's influenced heavily by china is a moot point. however korea's culture or influence on the world is not sufficient to warrant a top 16 civ of all time honor. by the same token zulus and iroquois, and even the aztecs are bad choices too. but you have to have someone to fill certain geographical areas, i'm sure the designers felt the same way

korea's military influence on the world throughout is basically nil. i say this in the broadest sense - you can argue they were brave people who fought off countless invasions, but that's no military achievement. like it or not, conquest is, and should be, one of the considering factors.

culture wise, simply building the printing press is not in itself a worldclass achievement, even though it is an impressive accomplishment. to put it simply, they built the mousetrap, but gutenberg built the better one, and sold it to the world. korea did not have wonder class monuments or buildings. and depite all the arguing about language, it's doesn't affect the cultural importance of korea - just about every civilization had a language, borrowed or not.

2. now we go to the subject of whether or not korea should replace china or japan as an east asian civ. chine definitely should not be replaced. japan neither. japan's influence, especially in the last century, superceded just about every asian country (even china). you have the obvious economical power, which nullifies the korean economy arguement. and like it or not, japan's militarization and ww2 involvement qualify it as a major influential power.

the mass murder of civilians and other war crimes do not detract from the fact japan held a lot of sway in the war, and changed the fate of many asian countries, plus australia, plus the US. civlization 3 is not a game about morals or the right thing to do - it is an amoral game that attempts to recreate the rise and fall of civilizations without passing judgements. thus japan should be included, not despite of, but because of ww2. i agree with another poster who said that if japan wasn't involved in ww2, it should not have been one of the 16 top civs in the game - economics alone is not enough, and historical japanese culture is unique but not awe inspiring. war crimes therefore should not prevent japan from being included. korea on the other hand has never had the kind of impact that japan had in the previous century.


because of these reasons, i don't think korea should be one of the 16 top civs, and i don't think it should take japan's slot. would it make it into the top 32? probably, but just barely. i wouldn't mind trying out the turtle boat unit though. they can make it a a2d3 caravel in a secure transport and light combat role.

[Q Classic]

culture wise, simply building the printing press is not in itself a worldclass achievement, even though it is an impressive accomplishment. to put it simply, they built the mousetrap, but gutenberg built the better one, and sold it to the world.

no, gutenberg was in a location where they had a market for that stuff. koreans had it, but they didn't exactly have that crazed notion of white man's burden and seek to propagate it throughout the entire world.

but you have to have someone to fill certain geographical areas, i'm sure the designers felt the same way

yes, well, your point? it's quite valid... but that doesn't detract from the very reasonable argument that certain civs, no matter their location, should be included.

i wouldn't mind trying out the turtle boat unit though. they can make it a a2d3 caravel in a secure transport and light combat role.

the turtle ship wasn't a transport. it was a warship. you didn't read the research links, did you?

ah, well, it doesn't matter.
nobody listens to the koreans anyway.
if they nuked us all, who would care?

united artists, because then bond20 wouldn't have a place to start from.

[ron_neptune]

1. whether or not it's influenced heavily by china is a moot point. however korea's culture or influence on the world is not sufficient to warrant a top 16 civ of all time honor. by the same token zulus and iroquois, and even the aztecs are bad choices too. but you have to have someone to fill certain geographical areas, i'm sure the designers felt the same way

then perhaps you could tell us your choice...

korea's military influence on the world throughout is basically nil. i say this in the broadest sense - you can argue they were brave people who fought off countless invasions, but that's no military achievement. like it or not, conquest is, and should be, one of the considering factors.

the fact they were able to resist japanese attacks for a long period of time in history showed that even though they are miltarily weaker...they can protect themselves in times of war.

korea did not have wonder class monuments or buildings. and depite all the arguing about language, it's doesn't affect the cultural importance of korea - just about every civilization had a language, borrowed or not.

can you name me some world-class monuments and buildings? too many of the world ancient monuments are destroyed...and some civ doesn't even have such stuff and were in the game.

2. now we go to the subject of whether or not korea should replace china or japan as an east asian civ. chine definitely should not be replaced. japan neither. japan's influence, especially in the last century, superceded just about every asian country (even china). you have the obvious economical power, which nullifies the korean economy arguement. and like it or not, japan's militarization and ww2 involvement qualify it as a major influential power.

the mass murder of civilians and other war crimes do not detract from the fact japan held a lot of sway in the war, and changed the fate of many asian countries, plus australia, plus the US. civlization 3 is not a game about morals or the right thing to do - it is an amoral game that attempts to recreate the rise and fall of civilizations without passing judgements. thus japan should be included, not despite of, but because of ww2. i agree with another poster who said that if japan wasn't involved in ww2, it should not have been one of the 16 top civs in the game - economics alone is not enough, and historical japanese culture is unique but not awe inspiring. war crimes therefore should not prevent japan from being included. korea on the other hand has never had the kind of impact that japan had in the previous century.

if you wish to talk about economics, i can tell you that Japan is suffering from it's worst recession since the burst of the bubble economy in the early 1990s...economical-wise, it may be the world's 2nd largest economy...but it's just an empty shell now...if miltary is so important to civ3, why don't they add the Vikings and the Mongols? why did they add the diplomatic, cultural and space race victory? Japan's impact on East Asian can be seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2. war crimes should not prevent japan from being included. the refusal to admit war crimes should.

because of these reasons, i don't think korea should be one of the 16 top civs, and i don't think it should take japan's slot. would it make it into the top 32? probably, but just barely. i wouldn't mind trying out the turtle boat unit though. they can make it a a2d3 caravel in a secure transport and light combat role.

apparently, you have never read about the historical importance of the turtle ship...it prevented Japanese invasion of Korea for a long period of time. You keep saying that korea shouldn't be in the top 16 civ...but you have made no evidence or your opinion of the top 16 civ.

[Q Classic]

korea did not have wonder class monuments or buildings.

of course not.
there's no such thing as the world's oldest standing astronomical observatory in east asia, erected by queen sondok, now. even though it clearly still exists and was used to develop a calendar and keep time since who knows when.

and of course the fact that korea has the world's longest continuing weather record is completely irrelevant. nobody cares about weather, it's completely useless anyway, and the fact that the koreans have this record in written form dating back to god knows when shouldn't be considered at all.

you've converted me, romelus. where's your handle from, anyway?

[romelus]

no, gutenberg was in a location where they had a market for that stuff. koreans had it, but they didn't exactly have that crazed notion of white man's burden and seek to propagate it throughout the entire world.

then... too bad korea didn't have the "white man" burden. and the world can thank gutenburg for having the "white man" burden

yes, well, your point? it's quite valid... but that doesn't detract from the very reasonable argument that certain civs, no matter their location, should be included.

that is a reasonable argument, i don't think we disagree here. korea just isn't one of those "must haves" like egypt or china. if korea was in a less congested spot like south america, the designers probably would have included it (like they did with zulus and iroquois), but it's not

the turtle ship wasn't a transport. it was a warship. you didn't read the research links, did you?

in fact i did. i was talking from a game play perspective. i was proposing that it take the caravel spot. it's too strong for a galley, not a big transport like a galleon, not an ocean-going warship like a frigate (it's man powered), and it's not a real steam powered ironclad. if you can show me a better slot, please feel free.

ah, well, it doesn't matter.
nobody listens to the koreans anyway.

your attitude is probably why no one listens. then again, you despise the "white man" way...

then perhaps you could tell us your choice...

certainly. i would put in the place of the zulus and iroquois, mongols and spanish. mongol for military brilliance (for a relatively short time, but they had half of the civilized world under control). spanish for its colonial "achievements", columbus rediscovering america had a lot to do with the spanish. it was on par with the english, french, and dutch as the four most prominant exploration and colonization powers. not to mention they wiped out the incas and aztecs (the aztecs already in the game and all). in fact the vikings and spanish were in civilization 2 i think

the fact they were able to resist japanese attacks for a long period of time in history showed that even though they are miltarily weaker...they can protect themselves in times of war.

like i said, being able to defend itself is not exactly a military achievement. likewise i wouldn't say china had any significant militray achievement like the romans or mongols.

can you name me some world-class monuments and buildings? too many of the world ancient monuments are destroyed...and some civ doesn't even have such stuff and were in the game.

click the civilpedia icon in the game, look under great wonders

being destoyed does nothing to tarnish the status of great wonders

yes, you don't have to have a great wonder to be in the game, but that's another strike against you. like the fact having no military achievement is one strike against you.

if you wish to talk about economics, i can tell you that Japan is suffering from it's worst recession since the burst of the bubble economy in the early 1990s...economical-wise, it may be the world's 2nd largest economy...but it's just an empty shell now...

aye, japan is in bad shape right now, just like korea was in bad shape in the asia crisis. big deal.

if miltary is so important to civ3, why don't they add the Vikings and the Mongols? why did they add the diplomatic, cultural and space race victory? Japan's impact on East Asian can be seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2. war crimes should not prevent japan from being included. the refusal to admit war crimes should.

the vikings were in civ2, and i wouldn't be surprised if vikings and mongols are in the expansion pack. military is not every thing in civ3, but it's one of the qualifiers, and i'm just saying that korea doesn't qualify in this category. japan's refusal to acknowledge its warcrimes has nothing to do with this "amoral" game, civ3 is not trying to make a political or moral statement, it's just a game made for gamers. if it tried to be 100% PC, you wouldn't even have things like razing cities, having captured slave workers and such.

apparently, you have never read about the historical importance of the turtle ship...it prevented Japanese invasion of Korea for a long period of time. You keep saying that korea shouldn't be in the top 16 civ...but you have made no evidence or your opinion of the top 16 civ.

apparently, i have. it prevented an invasion, the end.

and i don't think having me spend time to assess each and every one of the top 16 civs in the game is fair, nor necessary. why don't you state why korea is superior to each and every one of the top 16 civs? (excluding the zulus and iroquois, whom i said don't deserve the honors)

of course not.
there's no such thing as the world's oldest standing astronomical observatory in east asia, erected by queen sondok, now. even though it clearly still exists and was used to develop a calendar and keep time since who knows when.

and of course the fact that korea has the world's longest continuing weather record is completely irrelevant. nobody cares about weather, it's completely useless anyway, and the fact that the koreans have this record in written form dating back to god knows when shouldn't be considered at all.

those are not wonder class monuments or achievements. if you have to bring out minor achievements, there are thousands in the history of mankind. it's really nice korea has them, but so did many other civilizations. i think that patriotism or enthusiasm aside, you agree with me.

you've converted me, romelus. where's your handle from, anyway?

my nick is from a song called romelus 3. it has nothing to do with romulus the supposed founder of rome.

if there's anything else to argue about, go nuts.

[yin26]

Read my book when it comes out. I'll post a message then.

[ron_neptune]

i would not bother to argue since it's a waste of time...we are at different perspective and i don't wish to convert you to mine...but definitely neither the mongols nor the spanish deserve to be in civ3...the mongols were strong only because of the leaders from Genghis Khan to Kublai Khan...after their reign...the mongol empire simply disappeared...the spanish may have contributed in "colonial" achievements...but i would prefer if you play colonization...this is a too limited area to decide their importance to the world...

[thinkingamer]

Originally posted by romelus


1. then... too bad korea didn't have the "white man" burden. and the world can thank gutenburg for having the "white man" burden



2. that is a reasonable argument, i don't think we disagree here. korea just isn't one of those "must haves" like egypt or china. if korea was in a less congested spot like south america, the designers probably would have included it (like they did with zulus and iroquois), but it's not



3.in fact i did. i was talking from a game play perspective. i was proposing that it take the caravel spot. it's too strong for a galley, not a big transport like a galleon, not an ocean-going warship like a frigate (it's man powered), and it's not a real steam powered ironclad. if you can show me a better slot, please feel free.



4. your attitude is probably why no one listens. then again, you despise the "white man" way...



5. certainly. i would put in the place of the zulus and iroquois, mongols and spanish. mongol for military brilliance (for a relatively short time, but they had half of the civilized world under control). spanish for its colonial "achievements", columbus rediscovering america had a lot to do with the spanish. it was on par with the english, french, and dutch as the four most prominant exploration and colonization powers. not to mention they wiped out the incas and aztecs (the aztecs already in the game and all). in fact the vikings and spanish were in civilization 2 i think



6. like i said, being able to defend itself is not exactly a military achievement. likewise i wouldn't say china had any significant militray achievement like the romans or mongols.



click the civilpedia icon in the game, look under great wonders

being destoyed does nothing to tarnish the status of great wonders

yes, you don't have to have a great wonder to be in the game, but that's another strike against you. like the fact having no military achievement is one strike against you.



aye, japan is in bad shape right now, just like korea was in bad shape in the asia crisis. big deal.



7. the vikings were in civ2, and i wouldn't be surprised if vikings and mongols are in the expansion pack. military is not every thing in civ3, but it's one of the qualifiers, and i'm just saying that korea doesn't qualify in this category. japan's refusal to acknowledge its warcrimes has nothing to do with this "amoral" game, civ3 is not trying to make a political or moral statement, it's just a game made for gamers. if it tried to be 100% PC, you wouldn't even have things like razing cities, having captured slave workers and such.



8. apparently, i have. it prevented an invasion, the end.

and i don't think having me spend time to assess each and every one of the top 16 civs in the game is fair, nor necessary. why don't you state why korea is superior to each and every one of the top 16 civs? (excluding the zulus and iroquois, whom i said don't deserve the honors)



9. those are not wonder class monuments or achievements. if you have to bring out minor achievements, there are thousands in the history of mankind. it's really nice korea has them, but so did many other civilizations. i think that patriotism or enthusiasm aside, you agree with me.



my nick is from a song called romelus 3. it has nothing to do with romulus the supposed founder of rome.

10. if there's anything else to argue about, go nuts.

1. Q cubed only tried to say that in east asia did not have extensive trade as europe (with its craze for colonization going on).

2. Yes i agree Korea is not a must be like China or Egypt, but it could replace Japan, specially if u consider that a huge percentage of Japanese blood (at least Half) is Korean, and how much Korea influenced Japan's culture.

3. Caravel?!?! Turtle ship was invented at about after 100 years after British made man-o-war. Did u really read about the Turtle ships?

4. Yes, many people don't listen to Koreans in its historical perspective and this sometimes make us mad.....but this is not compleaty our fault.

5. That's (ur civ choices) ur opinion and i respect it.

6. I don't care about military achivements; yes its a factor that makes a civ great but then Koreans never had pride for its "military achivements" , but rather had pride for its Peaceful, and advanced culture.
And Chinese DID have many military achivements: in Han dynasty they conquered Mongolia, Korea, SouthEast Asia, and Tibet (basicaly all their neighbors).

7. Again, Korea is not supposed to qualify as military civ. And neptune only tried to say that Japan's impact on East Asian is seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2.

8. Korea stopped the largest sea invasion before Normandy, twice. Who cares, right?
In my opinion Korea civ is at least as important as Japanese civ in this world history.

9. world's oldest standing astronomical observatory in east asia.......world's longest continuing weather record ...........minor achivements...............

10. People like u don't listen to Koreans.

[ron_neptune]

thinkingamer said everything i wanted but did not say. thanks.

[romelus]

Originally posted by thinkingamer



1. Q cubed only tried to say that in east asia did not have extensive trade as europe (with its craze for colonization going on).

ok, ignore china next door, and the silk roads. even china doesn't know much about the korean press. if your attitude was "i don't advertise", you succeeded.

2. Yes i agree Korea is not a must be like China or Egypt, but it could replace Japan, specially if u consider that a huge percentage of Japanese blood (at least Half) is Korean, and how much Korea influenced Japan's culture.

at least half of japapnese is korean - your point being? i'd say that koreans are pretty well represented in the game then

yes influence, why don't you talk about how much china influenced korea. using the same rationale, japan is not worthy because of korean influence, korea is not worthy because of chinese influence (i realize this is silly, but that's basically what you said)

3. Caravel?!?! Turtle ship was invented at about after 100 years after British made man-o-war. Did u really read about the Turtle ships?

then do as i requested - show me a better slot in the game, which unit would you replace?

4. Yes, many people don't listen to Koreans in its historical perspective and this sometimes make us mad.....but this is not compleaty our fault.

true, many nations have had their achievements buried through time

5. That's (ur civ choices) ur opinion and i respect it.

thank you

6. I don't care about military achivements; yes its a factor that makes a civ great but then Koreans never had pride for its "military achivements" , but rather had pride for its Peaceful, and advanced culture.
And Chinese DID have many military achivements: in Han dynasty they conquered Mongolia, Korea, SouthEast Asia, and Tibet (basicaly all their neighbors).

then we agree, korea has no military achievements, whether you consider them important or not

the chinese did not have significant military campaigns like the romans and mongols did. they took their time in conquering neighbours over the years. they have more military results than the koreans though.

7. Again, Korea is not supposed to qualify as military civ. And neptune only tried to say that Japan's impact on East Asian is seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2.

i know what he said, and i know you read what i said

8. Korea stopped the largest sea invasion before Normandy, twice. Who cares, right?
In my opinion Korea civ is at least as important as Japanese civ in this world history.

did the turtle boat influence anything outside of korea? no. that's why people don't even know much about it. did the imperial japanese navy change the world? you bet. that's ONE of the reasons they are in the game

9. world's oldest standing astronomical observatory in east asia.......world's longest continuing weather record ...........minor achivements...............

the incas had an understanding of astronomy that baffles modern scientists; the vikings discovered north america way before columbus officially did... see my point? you may have the oldest observatory in east asis, but isn't there a reason that copernicus' observatory is a wonder in the game, and yours isn't? like i said, those are fine achievements, but they don't stand a chance against great wonders like the pyramids or the great wall.

10. People like u don't listen to Koreans.

actually, the very fact i even bothered to open this thread, then stayed up for hours reading in fascination, and then spent time typing down what i think, then replying to your message show that i am in fact, at this very moment, listening to what you are saying. just because i don't agree with you 100%, doesn't mean i don't listen to you

refer to my earlier message, your attitude may be why people don't listen to you.

more?

[siredgar]

Romelus,

I agree with you entirely. Your viewpoint is well-balanced and entirely reasonable.

I also applaud you for taking an interest in Korea. It deserves more attention, don’t you think?

However, I would like to expand on the ideas that you have discussed to give you a better understanding from another perspective:

1. Korea’s influence on the world is minimal.

Indeed, while the Koreans made some amazing achievements in the arts, science, philosophy, and religion, they did not spread these ideas outside of their own civilization. For a long time, the Koreans were even more arrogant than the Chinese in their sense of self-importance and self-sufficiency. As a result, for most of their history, they only dealt with the Chinese and ignored others, including incoming Westerners. Not surprisingly, that is primarily why Korea suffered a similar fate to that of China.

Regardless, I believe what Yin was trying to say is that Korea had a remarkable civilization that was far ahead of its time. The achievements in of themselves should be noteworthy and often surprise many people who are unfamiliar with Korea’s “hidden” history. I don’t know if the Koreans should be in the top 16, but they probably have more of a right to than the Mongols, Aztecs, or Zulu in many ways. In fact, I don’t think they should be that far out of the top 16—probably right behind the Spanish, close to the Portuguese and Dutch, but ahead of the Vikings.

2. Korea should not replace Japan.

You're right, I don't think it should and I don't think that's what Yin was advocating either. If I'm not mistaken, he said that Korean civilization was/is equally, if not more, impressive than Japan's, but he also acknowledged that it will not get the recognition it deserves from most people and that includes game developers at Firaxis. I will attempt to explain the reasons for this later.

Anyhow, the Koreans and the Japanese are highly related, both genetically and culturally. That is why there are constant comparisons. In my opinion, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to say that they essentially belong to a single civilization, which could include the Mongols to a certain extent, too. Contrary to popular perception (i.e., that of the “masses”, particularly regarding the Koreans), they are quite apart from the Chinese even though they both received a great deal of influence from them.

For a long time, Korea was a very powerful, independent “nation”. At one point in early history, Chinese and Koreans kingdoms heavily competed for territory in what is now Manchuria (land that is roughly the size of Western Europe). At that time, the inhabitants of Japan were still relatively “primitive” in many ways and had not even made the first steps toward what we would call a civilization.

In fact, Korea had an undeniably influential impact on Japan. There is significant evidence that much of early Japan comes from distinctly Korean, not Chinese, origins. Korean migrants provided much of Japanese stock. Some of this blended with Polynesian bloodlines that had arrived in the southern part of the islands, others with existing inhabitants on the main islands and to some extent with the Ainu in the north. They also brought rice farming and other rudiments of civilized life to Japan.

Example:

“By about 400 b.c. Korean farmers migrated across the Sea of Japan (called the Eastern Sea by Koreans) to southern Japan. This was the beginning of farming villages in Japan and much of the modern Japanese population is descended from these immigrants. The Japanese and Korean people are really close cousins.”

http://www.pbs.org/hiddenkorea/history.htm

Later, the Koreans sent artisans and priests to the Japanese to introduce advances in the arts, science, philosophy, and religion that they not only learned from the Chinese, but had also developed indigenously, too. Indeed, even much of what was derived from the Chinese had a distinctly Korean nature to it. Thus, Korea helped Japan makes its first steps toward “civilization”. The Japanese greatly preserved much of what they learned at this time to this day. In fact, some historians have argued that a great deal of what we consider traditional Japanese culture today is really derived directly from ancient Korea.

On the other hand, sadly to say, much of Korean civilization has been destroyed... at the hands of the Japanese. Situated on the mainland, the Koreans were forced to fight many wars to preserve their independence against the increasingly powerful Chinese (and later the emergent Mongols). The Japanese, separated by the seas, were not. They began developing a strong civilization they could now call distinctly their own, away from the troubles of the mainland. This relative isolation (and the lack of significant resources) later allowed them to quickly adopt recent Western advances in technology and quietly grow in power while avoiding foreign encroachment.

The rest is history.

Thus, until recently, a great part of Japanese history has been comprised of taking from others, especially the Chinese and Koreans, and only returning the favor with war. This is especially the case in its relations with Korea. In the eyes of many Korean people, not only did this “backward” upstart emerge as a much more powerful civilization than theirs, but it attempted to annihilate their own existence as a civilization. Many Koreans are frustrated because so many in the West admire Japanese culture AND power today and yet do not understand where much of it derives from.

That is why I would say that there is so much Korean resentment towards the Japanese.

P.S. Yes, Koreans (and fans of Korea) can be very emotional and passionate about what they believe in. Sometimes, to those unfamiliar with Koreans, I like to describe them as “the Italians of Asia”. I’ve also heard them being compared to the Irish. However, I do not think it is really fair to the Koreans to use either of these terms as they have a much longer history.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by romelus


at least half of japapnese is korean - your point being? i'd say that koreans are pretty well represented in the game then

LOL.

I have to say that part of the reason why I said Koreans are often overlooked is because of their oppression by the Japanese.