Civ of the Week: Greeks

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MarkG


did anyone mention PC before in this thread?

Yes, as a matter of fact. Leonidas introduced it, and Comrade tribune mentioned it in his reply.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MarkG
no, we just like the image of a historical person to be close to what he looked liked....

no, because that is a game feature that is accepted in order for the game to be more fun

meanwhile, a totally wrong image of Alexander is not fun

We dont know for sure what Alexander actually looked like. We do know for sure that civilizational charecteristics have evolved through history.

Some think distinct civ charecteristics will make the game more fun. Some dont. Some think the new alex portrait is fun (presumably Firaxis does) Some dont. Fun is subjective.

LOTM

[Leonidas]

lord of the mark:

Please don't over-analyze this PC thing.

I just happened to notice that Alexander looked gay and Cleopatra was depicted as being black. Current revisionist history also claims this viewpoint about both characters. I was merely asking whether Firaxis was leaning towards this revisionist view of history with regard to these two characters.

As far as gameplay goes - it's a game - with its own conventions. Even so, the game is about known history, with known real people, and will have known historical units, advances and buildings.

I accept the game play conventions within "the historical game world", but when they purport to show and use a real historical figure, I would expect a reasonable likeness. . .

[Arent]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Some think the new alex portrait is fun (presumably Firaxis does) Some dont. Fun is subjective.

LOTM

Ok - someone start a poll. This would be fair.


LOTM: You don't want to know what I would
change if I were in charge of this game
(someone suggested a 5 page must read pop up
about historical issues...cool)

...

Noone in Athens who was "dependent" on
someone was allowed to vote. This included
slaves and poor citizens but also foreigners.
And it is obvious: slaves/poor citizens could
be forced to vote in favor of someone,
foreigners would try to stir things up
You could call it "timocracy".

Arent

[JMarks]

Timocracy, Oligocracy, Aristotlocracy

You could call it "timocracy".

What is that? I would have guess the 'rule of fear', but thats combining Latin and Greek. would you be using tima, honor, and have it the rule of honor? Exactly what are you using here? Just want to make sure.

[Arent]

timocracy, oligarchy, aristocracy

Greek is sometimes a little chaotic - there
are more exceptions than rules.
"timo" comes from "timios" (worthy).
"timema" means (own) property.
So money = power.
But please forget about it - I already see a
new discussion starting that Athens was no
"pure" timocracy etc...

Arent

[Keygen]

Though the graphics are good I don't like either the photo of Alexander the Great. He does look like a Roman senator indeed! Maybe the humoristic air Firaxis trying to give to the civilization leaders forced them to make Alexander look like a Roman senator. It would be harder to accomplice that if they used his true appearance.

I find Cleopatra's portrait kind strange aslo. How is it possible she had dark skin while her ancestors were Greeks?!?

And it would be more fair for the Egyptians if they had used a more representative leader like Ramses the 3rd.

About Phalanx. I don't know if it was a Summerian "invention", maybe it was but especially its descendant, the Macedonian phalanx was the most powerfull "weapon" until the appearans of gunpowder. Not only its defence was great but when they were attacking nothing could resist them. Its greatest weakness was the ground. They couldn't advance well in aberrant ground and that was what Romans took advantage and won Macedonians at the battle of Pidna. And of cource it was useless for besieging...

Only the Mongol mounted archers might had been as strong as the Machedonian phalanx but they never met...

========

Regarding Athenian Democracy. I can't recall a more fair political system before or after its appearance.

Every man been Athenian citizen had the right to vote and was equal to his fellow citizen, rich or poor, philosopher or stonecutter, aristocrat or ex-slave.

Excactly what is happening todays in Democratic states with the exception of woman. But when did woman aquired the right to vote in the modern era? In the early years of 20th century!

But why is Athenian Democracy more fair that modern Democracy?

For the simple reason that for almost every metter every Athenian citizen could vote something that is simply impossible these days.

We elect a government every 4 years and they do what ever they want. Increasing taxes, making wars, etc forcing poeple demonstrating against government decissions many times.

Back then in ancient Athens people were determining for their future and not a government.

[JMarks]

Re: timocracy, oligarchy, aristocracy

Originally posted by Arent
Greek is sometimes a little chaotic - there
are more exceptions than rules.
"timo" comes from "timios" (worthy).
"timema" means (own) property.
So money = power.
But please forget about it - I already see a
new discussion starting that Athens was no
"pure" timocracy etc...

Arent

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Although, those two words see like they could easily have come from a similar root. After all, don't you have to be 'worthy' in order to have property? Reminds me of orthos and orthros. Well, we can definatly say that Athens was no orthocracy!

I still like Aristotlocracy-the rule of Aristotle.

Oh, Keygen, I think they chose cleopatra, because more people have heard of her, even though Rameses would a better choice. If one didn't know about him, he could look him up, catch ancient egypt-mania, then go discover some lost tomb of some prehistoric deadguy. Yes, I really think Firaxis should have rethought that one.

The mongol mounted archer would have obliterated the greek phalanx. Why? Because the two would never get anywhere near each other for the Greeks to make contact. Now granted, if the mongols came and attacked a city garisoned with phalanx, then that might be another story. But infantry based armies have always had trouble defeating horse-archers from the plains. Not just the mongols. How about the Sythians, and Parthians? Did they not have great horsearchers? Persia and Rome got blown out of the water by them. Ouch.

Athenian Democracy is more fair than modern Democracy, because modern democracy isn't a democracy. It is usually (as is the case with the USofA) a democratic republic. To define whether a Democracy is a true democracy, one must definet he demos-people. To Athenians that means citizens, which disculded many others. Arent, couldn't one try making a anthropocracy? The rule of man (mankind, including women)? Athens definatly isn't that either.

Too long, too OT for the most part.
Enough.

Ioannes

[Keygen]

Re: Re: timocracy, oligarchy, aristocracy

Originally posted by JMarks
Too long, too OT for the most part.
Enough.

Well, if everybody had sticked On-Topic this thread wouldn't count more than a couple of pages .

What I like most is when On-Topic threads become Of-Topic due to interesting conversation or debate .