Civ of the Week: Greeks

[KrazyHorse]

Could be wrong about the Alexander thing...

When you read enough anecdotes, they all blend into each other eventually.

[Black Fluffy Lion]

I'm not really bothered abou the historical accuracy or what he looks like but the picture of him does not have good graphics. It is a much lower picture quality compared to the other pictures we've seen. Does anyone else see this or is it just my computer??

[Martinus]

Whine-a-ton

Geez. I have not seen such a whining thread for ages. I mean, people.

I am a history major and can recite you the whole biography of Alexander back and forth. Also I DO know Aristotle was more important than just a teacher of Alexander. And I DO know that the Greek democracy was not a full democracy.

Actually I would expect everybody who is not a neanderthal history-wise to know that.

BUT www.civ3.com is NOT a history encyclopedia. If you don't know historical facts (or feel so unsecure about your knowledge that you need to point out every single incaccuracy made for the sake of humour) than read some freaking book or take history classes.

When I open the "civ of the week" feature I expect it to introduce me to the feel and general style of civilisation IN GAME, rather than throw at me thousands of hard facts and dates. I do NOT need a game site to teach me who Aristotle was.

Humorus variations about the facts and dates only add a nice comic value to the whole thing. And for this credit should go to Dan Magaha, who does a great job.

And finally about the leader portrait. Yes, he does not look like Alexander. What Firaxis did I believe was to take a name of the most widely know Greek (Macedonian, I know) and put him as the leader of civilisation that, except for exactly the Alexander's episode, was commercial and scientific. And this guy sure LOOKS commercial and scientific to me.

So, I will say something I read so rarely here: I AM HAPPY.

Now, can we please move to discussing the potential pros and cons of Greeks and phalanx in the game, rather than continue this high-school level pseudo-historical debate?

[MarkG]

for the sake of Martinus, i'm quoting a great man

Originally posted by MarkG
historical accuracy is part of the fun of the game. especially when it comes to "great library" texts where find something that is historically correct is not very hard, or when we are talking about a face that you will be seeing a lot in the game and which is supposed to give you the illusion that you're having hard diplomatic discussions with a great leader!

now if that's the image of someone who conquered the known world in 10 years.....

[Martinus]

Originally posted by MarkG
for the sake of Martinus, i'm quoting a great man

LOL

I also am a great history freak and love all those pseudo-historical thrills while playing Civilisation. But the leader looks good for a commercial and scientific civ.

Those who do not know history still have heard of Alexander, but haven't seen his pictures probably, so it will not bother them.

Those, like us, who know history, surely can rename the leader to someone known to us, like Pericles or Cleistenes, or some other pinko-commie democrat (pun intended ) of ancient Athens.

[Martinus]

Ok, I have just seen some people arguing Greeks should be militaristic and expansionistic rather than commercial and scientific, their greatest achievment being the Alexander's conquest, so I take back what I have said.

Firaxis, PLEASE make the game a history lesson with 5-page must-read pop-up every 10 turns. You should not be able to turn the feature off. Also, the foreign leaders you meet should be saying something like that:

"Great Bluto, we will enter a peace treaty with you, but only if you tell us whether Plato was a great:
a) hoplite,
b) philosopher,
c) Greek athlete."

[Leonidas]

I realize Civ3 is just a game - and it will be a great game - and I like Dan's humour.

But Alexander the Great should look like Alexander the Great. If not, why put him in at all? Why not make up a fictional name and character? After all, it's just a game.

Imagine the game picturing Lincoln as short, fat with blond hair? Hey, it's only a game right? Yes - but if you're going to use historical images of real leaders of the past - then at least get those images right.

The black Cleopatra looks like she could whip this whimpy, pasty-faced Alexander with one arm tied behind her back.

These images distort history. A whole new generation is coming along who will probably become interested in reading about history because of this game. That's right. . .

BTW, I understand that a movie about Alexnader the Great is being made, as well as one about the Battle of Thermopylae. Historical movies - happy days

[Arent]

Veto!
The game Civilisation has a long tradition and loyal fans which do *not* deserve
sloppy work. It is one advantage of civ that one learns something about history
while playing - I hate CTP for its "Televangelist". Fun is important (after all it's a game)
but historical accuracy is one point why civ has always been superior to other god
games.
IMHO there have been far too many games during the last few years which
*desperately* wanted to be "funny".
Please, at least try to keep an eye on such things like Alexanders pic. *begging*

Arent

History lesson? 5 page must read pop up? COOL!

[El hidalgo]

Yeah, "funny" is not what I'm looking for in a game of Civ. If it is argued that if I want historical accuracy I should read a history book, then the proper response is that if I want humor I'll go watch Monty Python rather than play Civ. The humor on the site, Dan's prose, that I enjoy, I don't have any problem with that, just keep the yuks out of the game. This worn-out, suck-faced, lipless priss who is represented to be Alexander is funny looking, yes, but maybe we should write a skit around him instead of a game .

Would it really have required any extra effort to make an Alexander that actually looks somewhat like Alexander? Or is it just that Firaxis wants to make him look like a clown, because Civ3 is supposed to be "funny"? (Hardy-har.) And no, he doesn't look commercial and scientific to me, he just looks weak and yet condescending, like some petty bureaucrat, not an emperor, and he looks a lot older than 33. A big thumbs-down for this Alexander, though I haven't been too impressed with any of the leaders so far. Maybe there will be an expansion pack with some historically accurate leaders....

[splangy]

MY GOD!!! Your all so whiny, it's like talking to a bunch of highly educated children!!! Its a recreation of history, who said in my history Alex didn't wan to express his homosexuality, and that he is constapated (J/K). Firaxis dosen't even have to make you guys a game, they could always go back to dinosours, SMAC 2, etc. These things they cant be yelled at for being wrong becouse no one has any proof of what they were or will be like. Cut them some fricken slack will ya! I enjoy there history, the greak UU and there bonuses, yes Alexander scares me a bit but i rather they hammer out a good GAME, and not worry all that much about graphics. Maybe they had to choose between a good AI or a accurate picture of Alexander. Maybe, for once, everyone could stop being so fricking pissy, and all shall live in peace, and all will rejoice *yay*

[splangy]

Originally posted by El hidalgo
Yeah, "funny" is not what I'm looking for in a game of Civ. If it is argued that if I want historical accuracy I should read a history book, then the proper response is that if I want humor I'll go watch Monty Python rather than play Civ. The humor on the site, Dan's prose, that I enjoy, I don't have any problem with that, just keep the yuks out of the game. This worn-out, suck-faced, lipless priss who is represented to be Alexander is funny looking, yes, but maybe we should write a skit around him instead of a game .

Would it really have required any extra effort to make an Alexander that actually looks somewhat like Alexander? Or is it just that Firaxis wants to make him look like a clown, because Civ3 is supposed to be "funny"? (Hardy-har.) And no, he doesn't look commercial and scientific to me, he just looks weak and yet condescending, like some petty bureaucrat, not an emperor, and he looks a lot older than 33. A big thumbs-down for this Alexander, though I haven't been too impressed with any of the leaders so far. Maybe there will be an expansion pack with some historically accurate leaders....

or maybe you could stop thinking about your self and relize that firaxis is making a game, not a picture gallery. To think you are the same people that will whine when they release a bad AI becouse there budget had to go to a bunch of pictures that affect the game by smiling or frowning.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by splangy
Maybe they had to choose between a good AI or a accurate picture of Alexander.

Yes, or maybe they didn´t care. Maybe they simply didn´t bother to find out what Alexander looked like. Or maybe they have a bad artist. Or maybe they were just sloppy.

An accurate picture and an inaccurate picture would take exactly the same amount of time.

[El hidalgo]

Originally posted by splangy


or maybe you could stop thinking about your self and relize that firaxis is making a game, not a picture gallery. To think you are the same people that will whine when they release a bad AI becouse there budget had to go to a bunch of pictures that affect the game by smiling or frowning.

Only partly guilty as charged. True, I'd like a better representation for my own selfish reasons (I just like it better that way), but what about all those players out there who come to believe that that's what Alexander looked like? And I don't see how it would take any longer to make an accurate versus an inaccurate representation. It's probably quicker to make it accurate, since all you have to do is copy (or perhaps 'translate' is the more appropriate word) rather than invent.

And why does it always come down to AI with you people -- "we can't do anything or it will screw up the AI. If something doesn't suck, that means the AI will suck." Maybe we should just have stick figures -- then we'd have a really kick-ass AI! (Am I allowed to say 'ass' on Apolyton? If not, I'm sorry.)

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune

An accurate picture and an inaccurate picture would take exactly the same amount of time.

Let's assume for a moment that the picture on the website is the one that will be used in the game. If that is the case then I would bet there is not enough time to make radical changes. Remember, these portraits are animated.

Dan: on the work. It is extremely difficult to write something that will be read by young and old.

[Leonidas]

If this game was representing fictional characters, then who really cares what they look like.

But these were very REAL leaders that we have all read about in the past.

This makes all the difference in the game. And not just ANY game - but the grand-daddy of them all - Civ III - and by the master of the Civ genre - Sid Meier.

From a company like Firaxis and from a game designer like Meier, we should expect quality AND accuracy.

These images (like poor 'ol Alex) have been the result of hours of work. They most likely started with sketches of what Alex looked like. They were shown at the weekly meetings. People had to discuss and AGREE on the image they were going to use. Then that image they selected was then rendered in 3D on the computer.

Again, probably every week or two, the artists had to provide an up-date on this image of Alex. All the facial expressions, movement, etc all had to be worked out in painstaking detail.

No my friends, this pathetic image of Alex was NO accident. Many people had to AGREE on the image they were going to use. And many hours went into the creation of it. To suggest that they did not know what Alex looked like is laughable. Are there no libraries nearby?

Don't be surprised if many of the characters will be the exact opposite of what they were in real life. They seem to reflect a particular outlook:

A politically correct, revisionist history outlook that simply doesn't square with actual history nor with common sense.

It would have taken just as long to make an accurate Alex or Cleopatra, as it did these laughable representations of them.

Don't get me wrong - I love Meier's games - I have all of them. And I am expecting BIG things from this game. But this type of graphical representation of well-known historical figures is just too sloppy for my taste. If I want fiction, I'll play space games.

But when I want to re-live moments in history, I like to play Civ and the many wonderful scenarios that dedicated scenario designers have poured their hearts into making. Does anyone recall Red Front? Colonies? Spartacus? Seeds of Greatness? Imperium Romanum? I could go on and on. . . These scenarios were GREAT because their creators took their subject matter seriously, and these scenarios have become classics as a result of the love they had for their subject matter.

Don't give me comedy; give me a great game.

Don't give me sloppiness; give me a product that treats its subject matter with some respect.

Don't fail the thousands of dedicated fans; and in return, they will give you their money