Civ of the Week: Greeks

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Don't be surprised if many of the characters will be the exact opposite of what they were in real life.

well until now they were pretty much ok....

http://apolyton.net/civ3/images/leaders.shtml

[Bereta_Eder]

Meself and other Apolytoners have noticed the inconsistent portrait of Alexander from the early days, when he first appeared on promotional screenshots of Firaxis.

We noticed it, we asked for an explanation but none was forthcoming.

Fact remains that this guy looks nothing like Alexander. If they wanted something funny they could put one of the three stooges in his place... Proportionately they would be funnier and look more like Alexander..

But what can you do...

[Steve Clark]

Sheesh, more pathetic whinings...

It's absolutely amazing that most of you know exactly what Alexander looked like (or didn't look like) without the distortion from the artists from many different eras. Even a bust or statue from the time of Alexander perhaps wouldn't even be close to accurate since they would want to portray him in the image of a hero warrior, regardless of what he may have looked like. And taken to a more extreme would be the Greek revivalists of the Renassaince (sp?), which some of you claims to be accurate.

If any of you can produce a photograph of Alexander, than I will stand corrected; in the meantime, don't display your whining ignorance.

[MarkG]

Re: Sheesh, more pathetic whinings...

Originally posted by Steve Clark
It's absolutely amazing that most of you know exactly what Alexander looked like (or didn't look like) without the distortion from the artists from many different eras. Even a bust or statue from the time of Alexander perhaps wouldn't even be close to accurate since they would want to portray him in the image of a hero warrior, regardless of what he may have looked like. And taken to a more extreme would be the Greek revivalists of the Renassaince (sp?), which some of you claims to be accurate.

first of all, this image hardly looks idealistic to me


beyond that, even if you are correct, why not use the most accepted(to be accurate) depiction instead of doing an image that is totally wrong?

[Steve Clark]

But why that one (which I like, btw) and not something that looks like either of the two busts your posted? Aren't we being just as guilty of wanting to portray Alexander as we want to imagine him whereas any one of the several images could be right or they could all be wrong.

BTW, what is the story behind that image with the sideburns?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
But why that one (which I like, btw) and not something that looks like either of the two busts your posted? Aren't we being just as guilty of wanting to portray Alexander as we want to imagine him whereas any one of the several images could be right or they could all be wrong.

the thing is that almost all images of Alexander has some common factors, and the civ3 Alexander has no resamblance at all...

BTW, what is the story behind that image with the sideburns?

what image?

[Steve Clark]

this one...

[MarkG]

oh, this one is from a mosaic in Pompeii, showing the battle between Alexander and Darius


see also this

http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/CGPrograms/Dict/image/alexander.jpg

btw, here are two sculptures, the heads of Philip and Alexander, found in Philip's tomb, in Vergina

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Leonidas

These images (like poor 'ol Alex) have been the result of hours of work. They most likely started with sketches of what Alex looked like. They were shown at the weekly meetings. People had to discuss and AGREE on the image they were going to use. Then that image they selected was then rendered in 3D on the computer.

Again, probably every week or two, the artists had to provide an up-date on this image of Alex. All the facial expressions, movement, etc all had to be worked out in painstaking detail.

No my friends, this pathetic image of Alex was NO accident. Many people had to AGREE on the image they were going to use. And many hours went into the creation of it. To suggest that they did not know what Alex looked like is laughable. Are there no libraries nearby?

Don't be surprised if many of the characters will be the exact opposite of what they were in real life. They seem to reflect a particular outlook:

A politically correct, revisionist history outlook that simply doesn't square with actual history nor with common sense.

Now, on Cleo I agree. But, with Alexander, why brainwashing anybody into thinking he looked like an Italian shopkeeper? Do they have something against the ancient Greeks?

[Leonidas]

Great pictures MarkG

Comrade Tribune: You agree that Cleo was BLACK? Hmmm, she had a Greek lineage (Ptolemy). Olive-skinned maybe, but black? Nothing more than revisionist history. . .

Now onto Alexander:

OK, let's for a moment assume that we know absolutely nothing about what he looked like.

So, let's build an image of him from what we know about him.

By accounts written about Alex, he was athletic, well-read, and highly intelligent. He was extremely brave, always leading from the front, inspiring his men, etc.

Alexander spent years outdoors, hunting, horseback riding, living under the stars.

Couple this with the fact that he had YEARS of training in the arts of war: fighting with the sword, throwing spears, running, etc

Then add the fact that he spent YEARS on very tough campaigns under the hot sun in Persia - outdoors, walking , riding, fighting, etc.

So, what image do we get from all of the above? First, Alex would have had a deeply tanned, weather-beaten face. Perhaps a few scars adorned his face and/or other extremities. He would have been thickly muscled, well-toned, and wearing the expression of someone who has seen a great deal of fighting and death.

He would have LOOKED like a KING who was filled with bravery, firmness, kindness and cruelty.

Just one example should suffice. During one seige, when it was time to attack the walls, Alexander was the first soldier up the ladder to scale the wall. He was fast, strong and brave. He reached the top of the wall, only to be confronted by several enemy soldiers, whom Alexander beat off and subdued. Then he rushed forward to fight other enemy soldiers who were manning the wall. By this time, he was joined by several of his own soldiers, and they all fought to take the city.

Do you realize how much strength and energy it takes to scale walls, and fight for your life against enemy soldiers?

Does the present image in the game represent THIS Alexander?

[Steve Clark]

Originally posted by Leonidas
So, what image do we get from all of the above? First, Alex would have had a deeply tanned, weather-beaten face. Perhaps a few scars adorned his face and/or other extremities. He would have been thickly muscled, well-toned, and wearing the expression of someone who has seen a great deal of fighting and death.

That is a very prejudicial opinion and in some notable cases, a very wrong conclusion based on the facts. I recently read an account of an English prince (I forgot who, sorry) who basically had many of the exact same attributes and lifestyle as Alexander (led military campaigns against the French, spend considerable time outdoors engaging in the recreational pursuits typical of the nobility, etc.). So perhaps he was a man's man like Alexander, with weather-beaten face? Hardly, he was feminine fop who wore white makeup, false eyelashes and lipstick.

I am not saying Alexander could have not have had a ruddy look, but you are jumping to the wrong conclusions based on anecdotal evidence. And a very prejudice one as well.

[Leonidas]

Quote by Steve Clark:

"That is a very prejudicial opinion and in some notable cases, a very wrong conclusion based on the facts. I recently read an account of an English prince (I forgot who, sorry) who basically had many of the exact same attributes and lifestyle as Alexander (led military campaigns against the French, spend considerable time outdoors engaging in the recreational pursuits typical of the nobility, etc.). So perhaps he was a man's man like Alexander, with weather-beaten face? Hardly, he was feminine fop who wore white makeup, false eyelashes and lipstick."


Hmmm, an effeminate English prince with many of the same attributes as Alexander? And you don't even know his name? He must have been quite a leader. . .

Yet Alexander conquered the known world. His exploits have fired the imagination of generations of people. He inspired his troops. His name and exploits have endured for thousands of years.

I did not say Alex had a "ruddy" complexion. "Ruddy" means "reddish". I said Alex was deepy tanned and weather-beaten. A very fair assumption, considering that Alex DID campaign for years in Persia outdoors under the hot sun. He LIVED with his men, and endured the many hardships they endured. Prejudicial? It sounds very reasonable based on the facts and common sense.

The current in-game graphical representation that is supposed to be Alexander, is not only prejudical, but would no doubt fit the image of this unknown, effeminate "English prince" you mention. But it hardly squares with what was written about the real Alexander.

Just look at anyone today who plays sports, camps a great deal, goes hiking and horseback riding, etc -- they will look tanned and athletic - they will not look like a "shop-keeper".

Years spent fighting with the sword will make you muscular. Just look at the images of Greek and Roman soldiers. Alex was not only a leader, but he actually fought at the front with his men. . .

This type of leader not only inspired his men, but served as an example for how other military leaders should act, from Caesar (who wept at Alexander's grave), to Napoleon and Rommel, and many others. . .

[Steve Clark]

You are missing the point. It is prejudical when you look at someone's skin color, build, complexion or whatever and judge such a person to be a shopkeeper or a hero warrior. In my example of that English prince, it wasn't that he was hero as Alexander but if you were to look at his portrait, you would immediately judge that he probable never spent anytime out of doors. Just like I have a friend who looks like the classic nerd (you know the stereotype - slight build, pale, unsociable, etc.) but is one of the best mountain climber and cyclist I know. While it may generally be true that those that are muscular and weathered complexion do spend time outdoors, do not judge a person's image on stereotypical (or prejudicial) views. While we all probably want Alexander to look very "manly" (as seem to be the consensus here, including me), someone who looks like an "Italian shopkeeper" could have very well done the same thing as Alexander. That's all.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
someone who looks like an "Italian shopkeeper" could have very well done the same thing as Alexander. That's all.

with the exception that this theory has no real proof, while the oposing theory does have evidence to back it up(sculptures, texts, etc)

[JMarks]

This Alexander looks like he survived the wars and has settled peacefully in Hellanized Babylon, had a few children by Roxanne, and let them continue future conquests.

Ok, so he doesn't look like the Alexander we know and love. Or hate. True, it'd be nice to have a complete stud there, but I won't whine too much.