German travesty, wiemar mod, and the limits of the golden age feature

[lord of the mark]

Weimar

In the list below I have tried to exclude right wing political writers hostile to Weimar (eg Spengler, Sombart) but have included all in less directly political areas (eg Nolde, Heidegger). I have included the Frankfurt Marxists.


1. The Kulturhistorische Bibliothek Warburg - a great center for Renaissance studies, founded by Abby Warburg in 1920.

2. The Psychoanalytische Institut, independent in 1920.
Karen Horney, Melanie Klein, Wilhelm Reich. In this context should also be mentioned Erich Fromm, though my source is unclear on whether he was ever affiliated with the Institut.

3. Deutsche Hochschule fur Politik - opened 1920. An institute devoted to the rational and objective study of politics, in contrast to the Wilhelmine university tradition.

4. Institut fur Sozialforschung - (lives on in New York as the New School for Social Research) center for Marxist-left hegelian researches - Horkheimer, Adorno, Marcuse, and Walter Benjamin.



Poetry
5. Stephan George
6 . Rainer Maria Rilke,
both still active under the Republic.

7 Thomas Mann - Die Zauberberg - The Magic Mountain 1924
8 Heinrich Mann
9 Martin Heidegger - Sein und Zeit - Being and Time 1927
10 Herman Hesse

11. Meinecke - Idee der Staatsrason - 1924

12. The Bauhaus Architects and Artists
Walter Gropius, Paul Klee, Lyonel Feininger, Wassily Kandinsky

Artists -

13Grosz,
14 Beckmann,
15 Nolde,

Composers
16Alban Berg - Wozzeck
17Hindemith,
18 R. Strauss

Film
19Fritz Lang - Metropolis
20Wiene - The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari.

Jewish Culture
21 Franz Rosenzweig - The Star of Redemption (arguably the most important work in Jewish philosophy in the modern age)
22 Martin Buber - Ich und Du (I and Thou) not sure when published
23 Buber-Rosenzweig bible - Not only the definitive Jewish translation of the Hebrew scriptures into German, but one whose powerful scholarship influenced all subsequent translations into English ( I presume influential on Christian translations as well)

Apologies to all those I have left out.


Source (except for Buber and Rosenzweig) Peter Gay, "Weimar Culture"

Almost all of the above between 1920 and 1929.
I dont think there is a 10 year period under the Hohenzollerns that matches this. Nor (I'm sad to say) do I think The BundesRepublik can match this. And, (I must say) America's Golden age after WWII relied heavily on the contributions of Weimar exiles, notably in Psychoanalysis, architecture, and the social thinkers of the New School.


LOTM
The spirit of Weimar lives

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by lupusmalus
Hmmmmmm, maybe I'm just indulging in typically German soul-searching and self-castigation...

The one thing Germans should not castigate themselves for is Weimar. The radical violence was perpetrated by enemies of Weimar, precisely those who saw Weimar as NOT a golden age. To treasure the greatness of Weimar is to repudiate both those radicals of right and left (but mainly right) who fought Weimar tooth and nail, and the regime that was established by those who murdered Weimar. Weimar is the shining rebuke (as Wilhemine Germany is not) to those who may consider 1933-1945 as Germany's golden age.

LOTM

[tniem]

Yeah but LOTM during the Weimar Republic, Germany collapsed. Their economy become the saddest in all of human history. Piles of marks were used for fire wood because they weren't worth the paper they were printed on.

I am not saying that it was necessarily the republic's fault (mainly that my nation could not convice the world or itself that Wilson's 14 points should be accepted). But how can you make the claim that a country's golden age is the time when it directly contributed to the biggest international depressions in all of human history?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by tniem
Yeah but LOTM during the Weimar Republic, Germany collapsed. Their economy become the saddest in all of human history. Piles of marks were used for fire wood because they weren't worth the paper they were printed on.

I am not saying that it was necessarily the republic's fault (mainly that my nation could not convice the world or itself that Wilson's 14 points should be accepted). But how can you make the claim that a country's golden age is the time when it directly contributed to the biggest international depressions in all of human history?

The hyper-inflation took place in 1923, IIRC. From 1924 to 1928 Germany achieved an economic recovery. The collapse in 1929, though it finished off Weimar, began outside of Germany.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

So what was the Golden age of Greece? Periclean Athens? Any of you guys actually read say, Thucydidie's Peloponesian War? The Spartans devasted Attica, there was a terrible plague, colonial revolt and internal dissension. It was a golden age because of the ideas and culture it produced, not because it was pleasant to live through.

LOTM

[KrazyHorse]

Personally, I'd tag Germany's GA as extending all the way from 1871 to 1933. Maybe it's just my physics background, but 3/4 of all the scientific names I know from that period are from germanic countries (including the big boys: Einstein, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Bohr, etc).

[lupusmalus]

1871-1914

Art:

Expressionism, if there ever was a uniquely "German school" in painting, this was it, "Blauer Reiter" ("Blue Rider"), "Brücke" ("Bridge") Kandinsk, Marc, Macke, Heckel, Schmidt-Rottluff, Nolde (already up and running!)

Music:

Wagner, Brahms, Mahler, Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Schönberg (inventor of "atonal music)

Literature:

Rainer Maria Rilke, Thomas + Heinrich Mann, Hermann Hesse, Stephan George (all already up and running!), Frank Wedekind, Else Lasker-Schüler, Georg Heym/Rudolf Eucken, Paul Heyse, Gerhart Hauptmann (all Nobel Price), Theodor Mommsen got the Nobel Price for Literature for his historiography

Science:

1901-1914 every third of the 42 Nobel Prices in natural sciences went to a German, German universities and extra-universitary research facilities, indeed German education as a whole served as models worldwide

Planck, Koch, Röntgen, Behring, von Laue, etc., also important Virchow, Einstein

And all these achievements and more in a stifling socio-cultural climate (!), but in contrast to Weimar the Kaiserreich was also strong in every other respect, with a population explosion putting it far ahead of all other European powers except Russia, and due to its education system this was not only quantity but also quality, leading to a massive economic expansion putting Germany into second place behind the US with an indusputable lead in new and growing businesses like electronics or chemicals, strong armed forces etc.

In short the Kaiserreich had almost everything Weimar had and in some respects it had much more, also with substantial internal problems which, however, are far outstripped by those of Weimar, which hardly any of its inhabitants considered a "golden age". And especially not its constitutional system, it was not only the radicals who were against Weimar, the republicans had been left to pick up the pieces and now were blamed for having gotten Germany into this mess in the first place, the unambiguously republican parties, the "Weimar Coalition", hardly ever had a majority in the Reichstag and were forced to form coalitions with the more "moderate" antidemocrats. A popular song went "We want our old Kaiser Wilhelm" back. Etc. pp.

Talking about cultural and science, what Weimar did was to bring all the developments which had already been there previously to their peak, so in that sense the "golden age" would indeed encompass both as Krazy Horse pointed out, a division would be artificial.

And I thought that the Peloponnesian War put an end to the Greek golden age. And I also think that a truly golden age has to have had somewhat decent living conditions.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by lupusmalus
In short the Kaiserreich had almost everything Weimar had and in some respects it had much more, also with substantial internal problems which, however, are far outstripped by those of Weimar, which hardly any of its inhabitants considered a "golden age". And especially not its constitutional system, it was not only the radicals who were against Weimar, the republicans had been left to pick up the pieces and now were blamed for having gotten Germany into this mess in the first place, the unambiguously republican parties, the "Weimar Coalition", hardly ever had a majority in the Reichstag and were forced to form coalitions with the more "moderate" antidemocrats. A popular song went "We want our old Kaiser Wilhelm" back. Etc. pp.

Talking about cultural and science, what Weimar did was to bring all the developments which had already been there previously to their peak, so in that sense the "golden age" would indeed encompass both as Krazy Horse pointed out, a division would be artificial.

And I thought that the Peloponnesian War put an end to the Greek golden age. And I also think that a truly golden age has to have had somewhat decent living conditions.

While the Weimar coalition parties (the SDP, the Progressives, and the Center) may not have likeed being blamed for the mess of 1919, they certainly prefered the Weimar constituin to the Wilhelmine - they WROTE the Weimar constitution after all, and they continued to defend Weimar to the end.

The moderate "anti-democrats" you refer to are the German People's Party of Gustav Streseman, I presume. Peter Gay in "Weimar Culture" makes the case that Streseman grew during the 20's, and that while in 1919 he was a constitional monarchist, by the mid-20's he was a committed republican. He may not have carried his party with him, but I think it is unfair to say that most of the German electorate was anti-Weimar, especially in the years 1924-1928.

Again, in terms of economics, the period of 1924-1929 was a period of economic growth. And of a fair degree of political stability, and of German acheivements in international affairs (the Locarno treaty, the Dawes plan, entry to the League of Nations, etc) The failure to distinguish between the periods of Weimar is significant, and tends to blacken all of Weimar with the chaos of 1930-1933.

I dont mean to minimize the cultural achievements of 1871-1914, but thats a period of 43 years, versus a period of 14 years (and effectively almost all of the cultural accomplishments were acheived in 1920-1929, just 10 years) Im willing to accept the idea that the entire period 1871 to 1933 (or, better,1871 to 1930) as the golden age, but I think this underestimates the discontinuities, and the political achievements of Weimar. Weimar began to do what Wilhelmine Germany never did, which was to teach the German people political responsibility and maturity. That this attempt failed, and the undermining of the attempt began with the very birth of the republic, should not take away from the nobility of the attempt. The failed dreams of Weimar are the basis for a hopeful post-1989 Germany, not the dreams of the Empire.


WRT the Greeks, cutting their Golden age off when Pelop. war begins loses Euripides, Aristophanes, Socrates, etc. I dont think we can reasonably cut them off there. This is a serious issue - what is the connection of cultural productivity with political stability and international strength - I think the relationship is rather more ambiguous than some might think.

LOTM
The spirit of Weimar lives

[tniem]

O.K. LOTM you have convinced me to atleast consider the Weimar Republic as Germany's golden age, (although I am still more inclinded to say some time during the Holy Roman Empire time or during the Modern Age) but you are quite percesive on this topic.

The question I have is what then would be Germany's unique unit?

With the game using a victory to achieve the Golden Age what would Germany's win be?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by tniem
O.K. LOTM you have convinced me to atleast consider the Weimar Republic as Germany's golden age, (although I am still more inclinded to say some time during the Holy Roman Empire time or during the Modern Age) but you are quite percesive on this topic.

The question I have is what then would be Germany's unique unit?

With the game using a victory to achieve the Golden Age what would Germany's win be?

That of course is the question I raised in the post that started this thread

I dont think the game engine as proposed is capable of doing what I want. I dont think mods will be able to make up for the deficiencies of this game engine. I am therefore leaning away from Civ3 optimism - not that this will be a bad game, Im sure it will be fun, just wont be worth it for me.

LOTM

[lupusmalus]

I think the fundamental problem we have here is what is meant by "golden age". According to the CivIII homepage it is "meant to represent the period in history when your civilization is at its apex." This obviously doesn't really help, but I would suggest that it does not only mean cultural creativity and achievement. I certainly agree with your hint, LOTM, that crisis and upheaval often are a fertile soil for them, out of the simple need to get to grips with the situation, whereas stability often breeds complacency, but while crises can be constructive with reference to Weimar Germany and especially Greece in the Peloponnesian War era I'd not talk about a "golden age" but rather about "going down swinging". During that war the Greek system of city states started to self-destruct, bleeding itself white until the Macedons and finally the Romans picked up the pieces.

Similarly with Weimar Germany. It did recover somewhat economically 1924-29, but in my view that was pretty artificial, totally dependent on American loans and with the onset of the world economic crisis the whole house of cards just collapsed. And if it's too much to say that the majority of the population was against Weimar throughout, most of them certainly weren't ready to do anything to support it, either, especially after the inflation of '23 had wiped out all their savings which fundamentally traumatized the whole middle class. And the SPD was the only party which defended Weimar to the end, the only party which didn't vote Hitler extraordinary powers in 1933. The only party whose name could be freely used after the war. After a string of electoral defeats a couple of months earlier Hitler had actually negotiated about a coalition with the Centre, which hadn't been at all disinclined, but Göring had intervened. The liberals had been basically wiped out at the polls. And while Stresemann may have grown, he certainly didn't carry his party with him, after his death in '29 they were soon back in the anti-Weimar camp. Which the highly nationalist German National People's Party under Hugenberg and his highly influential press empire never left.

Talking about the Empire, most of the achievements I mentioned were actually post-1900, making the time period roughly equal to that of Weimar's "golden age". And it actually had a highly vocal and critical Reichstag which already Bismarck found exceedingly difficult to bring into line and without the war the Emperor would certainly have had to make the government responsible to it at some point. He actually did as one of his last acts in 1918, for a brief period Germany was a parliamentary monarchy, a fact hardly anyone knows. And most of the "revolutionaries" themselves were anxiously concerned to preserve as much continuity with the Empire as possible. And there's actually an alternative to the stupid panzer in the not much less famed German infantry. It's probably even better, Hitler's shock troops were very good at overrunning outmatched enemies (with some exceptions like Rommel's desert campaigns), the German army of 1914-18 won most of its victories being numerically rather substantially inferior itself.

[Phutnote]

Very good point about the German Golden Age.

Firaxis would never be so crazy as to pick Hitler as the German leader, and yet they have picked the Panzer (intimately associated with the Nazi period, when the term was coined for armoured vehicles - ok, its abbreviated) as the German's special unit.

There are a lot of WWII games out there (from Wolfenstein to Panzer General to . . . well, you get the idea), so having a panzer in civ III makes sense, as there will probably be several WWII scenarios (and some user mods).

Yet doing this puts the German golden age during Hitler's reign, which is ridiculous. He left Germany in ruins, and in his final orders, wanted the German people as his funeral pyre.

But there are a number of other oddities concerning this period and Civ.

Civ II shipped with a WWII scenario, and in it . . . Germany was a Republic! Hitler led a Republic style government?? Hello? What was with that?

Firaxis doesn't want Civ to be used by right wing zealots to indulge their megalomania with Fascist regimes and such, but that then results in the oddity of a Republic government for the Nazis, which it certainly wasn't.

I think Firaxis might be better off changing "Communism" just to "Totalitarian Police State" and use it for BOTH nazis and Soviets.

Having Weimar as Germany's golden age is an interesting idea. There was a lot going on in the artsand sciences, but for game terms no unit leaps to mind. The late 1890's or so might also be good. Perhaps a strong infantry or machine gun unit?

Difficult navigating all the ugly pitfalls of history when trying to make a game.

Phutnote

[KrazyHorse]

Hey, when did Hitler dissolve the Reichstag? It was still around in 1938 at least...

Obviously Nazi Germany was a fully representative republic if the Reichstag was still in session.

And what's all this about a Roman "Empire"? The senate led the nation until Rome fell...

[Chris Horscroft]

Perhaps the ideal solution is to have a "turn off golden ages" option.

One point you may want to note is that if you are playing against Germany, having the panzer as the special unit is probably not such a bad idea. Germany's mid-20th century prowess at arms might make them very dangerous foes when they have powerful armoured units and a "golden age" running.

I totally agree that having a Nazi-era golden age is nasty if you are German, but view the Weimar republic as something of a damp squib - it was unpopular, it was unstable, and the economy alternately collapsed and was rescued by massive American loans. I accept that the cultural developments listed above are outstanding, but see the downsides heavily outweighing these.

My view (for what little it is worth) is that Germany peaked in the late 19th century as it industrialised and challenged the established power(s) for a place in the sun. I guess the big mistake they made was in failing to realise that whilst Germany had become the strongest power in Europe, Europe was rapidly being outstripped by the Americans (and eventually by the Russians).

Anyway, for it is worth, playing against a powerful mid-20th century, panzer equipped Germany could be a fairly tough challenge.

[Fiera]

Now that we're into it, which will be the French specific unit, anyways? What would be the ideal Golden Age for France? The Napoleonic Empire?