whats the special unit of the persians??

[red_jon]

You guys have no sense of humour

Can you imagine invading Cairo with a horde of flying carpets?

[d_dudy]

Originally posted by korn469
Harlan

i still disagree about the elephants, because i haven't seen a picture of an elephant military unit anywhere...i know that this is an old picture and Dan said it was just for testing animations but it looks like it has many of the special units on it


no elephants...so until i see an elephant i really don't think they are in the game, especially since elephants are in the game but as a luxery and not a resource

do you honestly think that picture has every unit on it? there's not even a submarine on that picture

[korn469]

do you honestly think that picture has every unit on it? there's not even a submarine on that picture

i know it doesn't have every unit on it...but it looks like it has all of the ancient units on it and the elephant would be an ancient unit...

i just don't think that firaxis would give the indians their own special unit the elephant, which no other civs would have access to...either all civs will have the elephant or no civs will...and since it's not on any screen shots, and none of the tech chart screen shots have included an elephant i honestly don't think it is going to be in the game

[KrazyHorse]

Why not? It's just an improved Cavalry unit, or something.

[korn469]

I still have a strong hunch that the Indians will have Elephant as their unit. Why? The pic for the Polytheism tech in the Civ3 tech tree is an elephant, as it was in Civ2. This is pretty nonsensical, and only makes sense if an elephant unit comes with that tech (for at least one civ, anyways).

that is what harlan said...and unless something changes there is not going to be an elephant unit under polytheism, especially not a unit that only indians can access

and while there might be a picture of an elephant in the game, the unit in question if it is in the game will be based on either a horseman or a knight...it would cost the same as a horseman or a knight and would require horses also it would have one stat that is better than either a horseman or a knight...so while it looks like an elephant, it would be an improved horseman/knight to me...especially since it falls under either horseback riding or chivalry and requires horses

[Harlan]

Korn,
The fact is we don't know if any elephant unit or units will be in the game or not. I have a hunch they will. This is based on the Polytheism pic, plus the fact that there are three blank spaces for that tech. For all we know, there could be a general elephant unit for everyone, and then a special version for India.

Chances are there still are some general units not shown in the tech tree. Look again at that image of all of those units you asked me to see and provided a link for. Look at the topmost land unit standing near the coast. If that's not a diplomat unit then I don't know what (he's holding a scroll), yet there is no such unit in the tech tree, despite Writing having a whopping 4 empty spaces. (The guy standing to the northeast of the chariot also looks like a diplomatic type, again holding a scroll instead of weapon)

That picture is missing many things as well, even in ancient times. Where is the Egyptian special unit chariot, for instance?

By the way Stefan, camels were only domesticated 4000 years ago, and ridden 3100 years ago, first in Arabia. They didn't get to the Sahara until surprisingly late - I don't remember exactly but between 500 and 0 BC. You also have to consider that an Arab civ certainly wouldn't begin only with Islam. They have a long history before that as an advanced civ (in the Yemen area mostly). Cameleers seems like a better match with them, IMHO.

As an aside, where is the info that the Russian special unit is the MiG? I noticed in the tech tree that there doesn't seem to be any space for it. There is one blank space at Advanced Flight for a special unit, not two, and we already know the F-15 is in. Plus, wouldn't having both the F-15 and MiG be too similar to each other?

[Harlan]

By the way, speaking of that picture of all the units. What's the guy directly above the chariot unit? It looks like an Arabian special unit, with a scimtar type curved blade sword. What civ could that possibly be for of the ones actually in the game? Really grasping at straws, I'd have to guess Persian, Indian or even Chinese. Maybe the barbarians have a special unit or two of their own? Unused art, like the biplane?

And what about the guy directly below the cannon unit - could he be an early diplomat unit, holding some kind of tablet? He certainly doesn't seem to have a weapon.

[Stefan Härtel]

By the way Stefan, camels were only domesticated 4000 years ago, and ridden 3100 years ago, first in Arabia. They
didn't get to the Sahara until surprisingly late - I don't remember exactly but between 500 and 0 BC. You also have
to consider that an Arab civ certainly wouldn't begin only with Islam. They have a long history before that as an
advanced civ (in the Yemen area mostly). Cameleers seems like a better match with them, IMHO.

I didn't quite say that. OK, I got them a thousand years too early. I didn't say the Arabs started only with Islam,I spoke of the invasion of the Arabs -and you must admit that that was the point the Arabs appeared on the stage of world history. The camel was, according to a not so reliable source I once read in a bookstore- introduced to Egypt by the Persians, so at earliest in 525 BC.
Maybe the cameleer isn't the most representative unit for the Persians, but neither is the Parthian archer.

[The Mad Viking]

The Persians had great cavalry, and the immortals were, at least in later centuries, cavalry. They made extensive use of armour, but kept it reasonably light by concentrating it on the front. They carried a lance as well as a bow, and often other weapons as well, rather like a Byzantine Cataphract.

Their spearmen were lowly, and foot archers are already taken by Babylon. Elephants were used but in extremley small numbers, to protect the generals and perhaps to disrupt enemy cavalry. I am not familiar with Persion use of the camel.

There is in Civ2 a huge leap between Horsemen and Knights. Perhaps the Persians will have something in between, a 3-2-2 unit?

[Stefan Härtel]

Whatever, this little text authored by my humble self is meant to help you get your opinion on a Persian-specific unit (please don't mind any spelling or grammatical errors, I typed this down rather quick).

In the three truly "Iranian" eras of ancient Persian history -disregarding the short Macedonian rule of the Seleucid dynasty- the change of the army has been shifting, not abrupt.
In the era of the Achaemenids (559/50-330 BC), the army at first was a milita corps, in which significant Persian weapons were used. These may be regarded as more developed versions of those the Indoiranian tribes introduced to the Middle East during their migration. Chariot and Cavalry, the latter mostly being armed with bow and arrow, can be assumed the most typical force. Of major importance to the Persian army later on was the camel, which turned out as the best weapon against cavalry, and even the famed and feared cavalry of the Lydians, a kingdom in western Asia Minor, could not resist the fierce courage of the fighters, but mostly the strong smell of the camels. Best evidence of the early Persian army could be given, if the "Lost Army of Cambyses" would be found in the Libyan desert.
The army was re-organized during the reign of king Darius I. (522-486 BC). Darius divided the army into two main structures- roughly the cavalry (persian "Asabara) and infantry ("Arshtika"). These two main units of course were divided into subsections. In the cavalry, the camels ("Ushabari") were at least as important as horseriders. The infantry was mainly made up of lance carriers. Another important factor was the chariot, to which the Persians often attached scythes. The most important part of the Persian army was of course the archer ("Thanuviya"). The archery regiments were most propably also divided into infantry ("Pasti") and cavalry regiments. Elephants are known to have acted at least at the battle of Gaugamela (330 BC).
Elite- and gurad units were also used. The most famous of these are undoubtly the "Immortal 10,000", of which one thousand soldiers were the direct guard to the King.
The army itself however also consisted of fighter from all over the empire ("Imperial Body"), with their typical weaponry and divided strictly into ethnics.
The battle strategy was simple. Either the battle was decided by the storm of mounted archers, a typical ancient battle strategy, or the 'preparation assault' by archers and slingers, and after that, other units involved striked.
The Parthians of the Arsacid dynasty, who took control of the Iranian plateau from ca. 240 BC on, had a more simple division of forces. Their nomadic origin obviously brought them in to the "mounted archers" concept deeper than the Achaemenids.
Later, the Parthians were forced to make changes to their cavalry, most importantly because of the Roman army that stood against it. Heavily armored horsemen (Greek "Kataphraktoi", Latin "Clibanarii") were not new to the Iranian army, but now introduced as a driving force. In a fake retreat, the Parthian horse-archers were known to shoot from their horses backwards- the so-called "Parthian Shot".
The Persians from the Sasanid dynasty (224-654 AD) did not change much to this; they included mercenaries and light horsemen from all over their empire such as Kushanas, Hephtalites, Turks and Arabs. The heavy-armored riders (Clibanarii) could rightfully be called "knights" as done often by the Romans; According to Roman sources now elephants were more commonly used in the Persian army. The Clibanarii and their horses were now almost entirely covered by scale armor. In siege warfare, the Persians often simply "copied off" the Roman style, but were just as successful.
Only the Arab armies could continuously resist this war machine.

Sources: J. Wiesehöfer, "Das Antike Persien"
R. Ghirshman, "Iran, from the Earliest Times to the Islamic Conquest"
H. Koch, "Es kündet Dareios der König..."

For further reference, I've started writing a small essay about Iran's history which I plan to publish in the internet somewhere sometime. I've finished it up to the end of the Sasanid era.

[Gangerolf]

[Harlan]

"Maybe the cameleer isn't the most representative unit for the Persians, but neither is the Parthian archer."

I agree with them as not being most representative, and am also down on the Immortals and elephant. So that leaves the Cataphract. And what is that unit in the graphic of all those units standing above the chariot unit? Could it be the Persian Cataphract? Does the color yellow help in any way, ie, do we know the color of the Persian civ yet?

And if it isn't, what the heck is it? I'm really vexed about this. Check out korn469's link to this picture, about 10 posts back.

[Alexander I]

From what I have seen, Firaxis appears to try to vary the unique units - replacing several units instead of the same one all the time.

For one thing, the Immortal would most likely replace the spearman, chariot or bowman. (From Persian art, Immortals were spear/bowmen, and the CivII Alexander scenario, where they're Chariots.)

So, we see that:

Babylon - Bowman replaces Archer
Egypt - War Chariot replaces Chariot
Greece - Phalanx/Hoplite replaces Spearmen
Rome - Legion replaces Swordsmen
India - Elephant?
Zulu- Impi replaces Warrior

The next logical progression is to the one ancient unit that doesn't have a unique substitute - the horseman.

Perhaps they'll try a mounted Immortal. I don't know. However, I think that a Parthian archer or Cataphract is quite likely, though I disapprove. I personally favor the Achaemanids over the Parthians, Seleucids, Sassanids, Iranians, et al.

I would like to see the Immortal, but we'll have to wait.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Alexander01


The next logical progression is to the one ancient unit that doesn't have a unique substitute - the horseman.

Or - the catapult. Maybe some kind of siege engine?
But as you say, we'll just have to wait and see.

[d_dudy]

Originally posted by korn469


i know it doesn't have every unit on it...but it looks like it has all of the ancient units on it and the elephant would be an ancient unit...

i just don't think that firaxis would give the indians their own special unit the elephant, which no other civs would have access to...either all civs will have the elephant or no civs will...and since it's not on any screen shots, and none of the tech chart screen shots have included an elephant i honestly don't think it is going to be in the game

if it doesn't have all the modern weapons (like a submarine, maybe?) then why would it have all of the ancient weapons?

that's speculation, sorta like talking about a elephant special unit that hasn't been 100% proven true through pictures.

or has it?