Expansion Pack Civs (Part 3): Just one more...

[Dessloch]

yeah and LoD (not anymore, coz that site is gone) explains the rulez, so ppl know how to vote and nothing is wrong in that. I know this forum for a long time, but I was just reading posts, now when I was searching for sum civ sites I found LoDs, so I came back here and voted.
and this forum has changed from the last time I was here... more intersting.

[Staszek]

Bored... bored....

[Staszek]

Originally posted by Fiil
How about asking Firaxis to make a special Polish edition where you can play Poles - and only Poles!

I'm sure with so many organized civ'ers in Poland, this will be a big success.

Wait a minute... why not make it a game where every organized Polish player can play Poland in multiplayer in the very organized Polish forums. 16 Polish players playing Poland in one game, imagine that!! Sold out in the first week in Poland.

And of course it will all have to be translated into Polish because most Polish players don't speak English!

And maybe it will be a problem for most Polish players to do more than one move in multiplayer because most of them have sooo bad connections. But of course they will still play.

Soon we will see (organized) riots in Poland because not everybody can start their game Poland. Whereafter the Polish government will have to ask Firaxis to remake the world map into one big map of Poland.

The world will be a better (and more organized) place!

Fiil. That is sarcastic. You know what? I am not angry. I am sorry for you.

Having happy childhood? Already started therapy?

Is is intense? SHOULD BE!!

[Locutus]

Jeez, I'm not here for a couple of days and the whole thread spines out of control...
First of all, I feel I need to say that the fact that this situation could develop like this is not a deliberate or coordinated action and it's not anyone's responsibility so let's not start accusing, blaming or bashing each other. If anyone is to blame it's me, for not making better rules in the first place (but that's easy to say in retrospect). This whole thing just went out of control and not even LoD, who started it all, could have predicted this. Let's just face the facts and deal with the consequences...

The original intention of this poll was to get a good idea of what civilizations the average Civ player wants to see in a possible future Civ3 Expansion Pack. I deliberately kept the rules for voting as simple as possible because such a poll can only be reliable if people have all the freedom in the world to vote however they like without being restricted by all kinds of restrictive and arbitrary rules. Some simple rules are necessary to prevent a relatively small group of people from completely undermining the reliability and meaning of the thread. It should be obvious to all (including our Polish friends) that this is exactly what happened now and if I should update the ranking, it would no longer be an accurate representation of the wishes of the average Civ player: it is simply not true that about 10-15% of all Civ players in the world would want only the Polish as a civ in an expansion pack, no more and no less.

So from this and the discussion that has been going in the time that I was out of town, it should be obvious that my rules to prevent the present situation were insufficient. The logical consequence of this is that I need to refine these rules (not in the last place because Markos, as co-owner of this site and moderator of this forum, wants me to). As far as it wasn't already, let it be very clear to everyone that I don't have anything against the Polish and that I myself firmly believe that Poland belongs in an Expansion Pack, so I'm not acting out of jealously or grudge but I'm acting to protect the value and meaning of this poll as a more or less accurate representation of the wishes of a large Civ community. If I don't do it others might try and repeat the Polish trick for other civs and before you know it the whole poll is completely messed up (if it isn't already)...

Because I still believe the only way this poll can be an accurate representation of the wishes of the Civ community is by being as little restricting as possible (and because it's an awful lot of work to update the whole ranking and add new votes with complicated rules), I want to keep the rules as simple as possible. Rules like you must give at least 4 times 20 points, only Chieftains or people registered since whenever can vote or you must give 120 points to civs from the top 24 are way too restrictive IMHO, esp. since no matter how complicated the rules, people *will* find ways around them if they really want to. There are really only a few new rules that I wish to enforce, rules that shouldn't affect most of the people that already voted and won't be very hard to keep track of. The new rules are:

In this poll, you can give points to civs that you would like to see included in an expansion pack, with the following restrictions (which have as sole purpose to prevent this thread from being 'abused' in any way):

1) You must vote for at least 6 civs and for at most 16 (you can vote for any civ you want that isn't already in Civ3, whether it's a 'big one' like Spain or a 'small one' like Liechtenstein);
2) You must give at least 80 points and at most 160 (the more points, the more important you feel the civ is);
3) You can give at most 20 points per civ;
4) I, Locutus, am the 'moderator' of this poll and have to right to refuse or change any vote (immediately or retroactively) if I find it for whatever reason unsuitable; I will always announce any change or refusal and if you don't agree with my decisions, you can either change or retract your vote;
5) This poll is intended to be a representation of the wishes of the Apolyton community, so do not promote/advertise or otherwise mention this thread outside Apolyton or to non-Apolytoners; if you're not an Apolytoner yourself but just 'passing by' or found a link to this poll outside Apolyton, please don't vote.

Of course, the 'rules' that are intended to facilitate me in moderating this poll (about editing votes and distributing points) still apply as well.

I think rules 1, 2 and 3 are pretty obvious but 4 and 5 may need some explanation:
- Rule 4 is mostly for emergency situations, I don't plan on refusing votes on a large scale or changing people's vote to suit my own agenda or whatever. It's intention is to allow me to intervene in the exceptional case where people are (willingly or unwillingly) 'abusing' this thread. In the eyes of of most people it was probably already an unwritten rule in the past. I might also use this rule for things like merging similar civs together, preventing people from voting for non-civs like poodles/Washington Redskins/AC Milan/Britney Spears fans/whatever, stuff like that.
- Rule 5 is undoubtably the most controversial one, it's basically a drastic shift in the focus of this poll. The reason for this is that Apolyton is an international community with people from all over the world, and at least 95% of these people is intelligent and reasonable enough to not (willingly or unwillingly) use this thread for their own political agenda but to cast an well thought-out vote for all civs they truly think should be in a Civ3 expansion pack. The opinion of the average Apolytoners most likely isn't all that different from the opinion of the average Civ player. If nothing else, the 'Polish invasion' showed us that when non-Apolytoners are involved in this discussion, it's impossible to guarantee that these people will cast equally well thought-out votes and to an equal degree represent the entire world community. Even though the opinion of an 'outsider' is just as important and valuable as the opinion of an Apolytoner, it would only have any value for this poll if *all* 'outsiders' everywhere in the world would be informed about the existance of this poll and would be allowed to vote, something which is practically impossible.
I realize full well that it's near to impossible to enforce this rule, I'm relying on the common courtesy and decency of all involved not to break this rule. Let it be very clear: I certainly do not plan on declaring all settlers who registered within days or hours before posting their first post in this thread 'suspects'. I know there are many long-time lurkers out there, some of them could be (and even have been) persuaded by this poll to finally register and vote. They may not have a public history on Apolyton but they are Apolytoners non-the-less. The same goes for newcomers who happen to make (one of) their first posts in this poll, they may not have been Apolytoners for very long but they are here to stay and thus have every right to call themselves that.
The only people that are not 'allowed' to vote are people that hardly or never visited Apolyton in the past and don't have any intention of coming back in the future. Normally these people will only find this poll if it's advertised by others (like LoD did), so that's why I ask all everyone not to promote this poll outside Apolyton.

I want to ask LoD and the other Poles not to promote this poll anymore (though they are of course welcome to explain on their Polish websites what happened here and possibly even discourage people to vote if they're not 'true' Apolytoners). I will soon start a new thread so Poles who are not familiar around Apolyton will probably/hopefully have a hard time finding the new thread and thus not be able to further unbalance the ranking by casting/editing their votes. It's quite possible that advertising this thread gave Apolyton a couple of new Polish members who will in the future contribute more to our community. Those people are of course more than welcome to cast/edit their vote in the new thread. However, my hope is that with the new rules in place and a new thread soon being started, little to none of the non-Apolyton Poles will do this and thus the position of the Polish on the overall ranking is somewhat normalized. Thanks to all this consternation the Polish civ and its importance have become quite well-known to many Apolytoners and persuaded at least some to change their vote so I don't think the Poles will drop as far back as #24 (not anytime soon anyway) but I do hope they will return to a level that better represents how the Apolyton community thinks of them.

In order to apply these new rules to all the old votes, I'm gonna do a complete recount of all votes casted so far (and at the same time put everything in a single Excel worksheet to automate and facilitate much of the updating process for me and make it more transparent for all by putting the file on my website). I hereby ask Markos to keep this thread open (regardless of the fact that we're about to cross the 500-post limit) until I'm at least partially done with my recount and can start a new thread. This way people don't have to hold back their votes and discussion of the new rules and I don't have to prematurely post a grossly inaccurate ranking. I will probably post a (partial) update in a new poll in less than 24 hours. The 'civ of the week' thingie will have to wait until I'm completely done with updating the ranking.

[MarkG]

Thank you for your intervention Locutus. I think you have put things in the right perspective

I do not have anything to add to what Locutus said, just to ask LoD to take down the page about the vote

also,

I urge people from this thread to volunteer to help Locutus in the recount

[orange]

I have a feeling that these rules, good as they are, does not stop people from getting their 'friends' and what not to vote in their interests. After all, according to these rules...the following is a legal vote.

Poles - 20
Jamaican - 20
Haitians - 20
Cubans - 20
Bolivians - 20
Chileans - 20

The goal is still accomplished, since the Poles will move up, and the obvious 'fill in' civs would have no chance at making the top 16 anyway. The only reason a 'Chieftan rule' would be good, is it prevents people from signing up, posting such as the above, and then leaving. That's what's been happening in the past, and could possibly happen in the future.

Let me add that I think you're doing a fantastic service for Apolyton and Civers everywhere, and for that I'm thankful. I just wanted to explain why the Chieftan rule was proposed and why it's probably still a good idea.

[Dessloch]

actually LoD has removed that link here some time ago... after lot of ppl just vote Poles 20. So he realized that it was not too good. But thanks to him I discovered this forum... I searched for it before, found it but then lost address to it... so for some time I couldn't be here. Now I'm back thnx to LoD.
It's not LoDs fault that ppl voted the way they did, he didn't say VOTE FOR POLAND, he just encouraged us to come here, and just to vote...
Also rulez r much better now, however after these incidents, there is negative attitude towards Poles... now they won't vote for Poland... but do we deserve this? so I just want to ask u to vote for civs which u think should be in the exp.pack, and not take into account what was happening here, and about polish fans joining the forum just to vote...

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Dessloch
It's not LoDs fault that ppl voted the way they did, he didn't say VOTE FOR POLAND, he just encouraged us to come here, and just to vote...

for Poland. Because it was "PATRIOTYCZNY"

i can understand that LoD had good intentions and didnt imagine things would turn out this way, but let's be honest on what happened ok?

[Be Quicker]

Originally posted by orange


The only reason a 'Chieftan rule' would be good, is it prevents people from signing up, posting such as the above, and then leaving. That's what's been happening in the past, and could possibly happen in the future.

If such a Chieftain rule would be enforced, lurkers, that in part have been lured out because of this poll (such as myself), would also be "penalized". So I guess the solution for me then is to post more, which I hereby do. However I also note that Locotus himself specifically mentions this case in the above post, and I thus expect that he won't enforce a chieftain-and-up rule (yet).

[LoD]

Alright - this is my closing statement (I hope) for the subject. Allow me to happily ignore all those posts since yesterday that accused me or the Polish posters of intentional foul play, xenophobia etc.

Like I've said, I started my little campaign because I felt that the Poles deserve a higher recognition, and eventually to finally be able to play the Poles as the official civ in Civ3 (although no one is saying that Firaxis will take this thread into account ). That goal has been fulfilled. However, there was also a second motive - I wanted to prove that there is a thriving Civ community in Poland despite their low attendance here - a community that should be reckoned with. And I guess that aim had been accomplished as well.

Next, I'd like to announce that I will not answer to any demands for apologies - this is addressed to people like Fiil who obviously think that I'm a narrow-minded xenophobe.

On the other hand, I'd like to apologize to Locutus - I have taken down my "manifesto" a couple of days to late. Back then, it had already achieved its goal and it was no longer needed, but I thought that I will allow it do die a natural death (if you haven't noticed, the 'Polish invasion' had been in a steady decline for the past week or so). If I had removed it, none of this discussion would take place and in turn no complications of the rules would have been endorsed. So I apologize again, Locutus, for unwittingly making your task harder.

Onto the conclusions - I will change the content of the PiQ (page in question - since yesterday the manifesto had been removed, if you've noticed), according to the new rule. I will write there an explanation of what had happened and a link inviting to Apolyton (not to the Apolyton forums). The PiQ will be kept up for about two months, and then removed. Why it will be online for such a period of time? Because, like I've said, I originally posted the manifesto to pl.rec.gry.strategiczne. It's there, on that newsgroup, and I can do nothing to remove it. What I can do is to post a clarification on that group. Now I ask Locutus - should I do this? If I don't, the post will eventually become lost among the multitude of others, and will "die"; you could only expect a couple of more 'Poles 20' posts, which will eventually stop appearing. If I do, then I will make the matter clear - however, the new post will itself be a reference to the manifesto.

Finally, I’d like to invite all those who had not, as of yet, considered Poland in their votes for this poll (infidels )! to the Why Poland SHOULD be included in one of the official sets thread .

This is LoD, signing out.

PS. MarkG: As much as I appreciate your intent, and your will to keep good PR, you can't ask me to do something that I've done by request of Locutus .

[LoD]

Arghh, so I have to post one more reply...
MarkG, if you were to know Polish you would find that the entire text of the PiQ was held in a semi-serious tone. Generally it is better to first learn a language and only after then attempt to tranlate a text written in it . Otherwise you'll just be getting words ripped out of the main context, which will almost always lead you to false conclusions.

LoD

[Master Marcus]

Thanks for clearing things up, Locutus. You're doing a great job, and I totally agree with your rule 4): as a moderator you have the right to accept or refuse any unlogical vote and in your next thread , that's when using your moderation that some "patriotic" sprees be contained to the more realistic feeling of the civ community. I may have suggested a collation of already wanted strict rules, too strict I must admit for a user-friendly forum. Keep up the good work.

P.S. to all Poles and Poland addicts: I'll really do be pleased to see Poland within an expansion, so don't get me wrong. But like some other posters have said, I really do want to see it justified as the right proportion %%% from the whole civ community.

[Mankind]

The only reason a 'Chieftan rule' would be good, is it prevents people from signing up, posting such as the above, and then leaving. That's what's been happening in the past, and could possibly happen in the future.

So any other settler around the world want to vote, and what should he do? [maybe spam it self to cheftain? ]

Next, I'd like to announce that I will not answer to any demands for apologies - this is addressed to people like Fiil who obviously think that I'm a narrow-minded xenophobe.

I second LoD's post

LoD I judge that you do not have for what to apologize, and every demand of apology in this matter I attend as funny and groundless...

[orange]

Originally posted by Be Quicker


If such a Chieftain rule would be enforced, lurkers, that in part have been lured out because of this poll (such as myself), would also be "penalized". So I guess the solution for me then is to post more, which I hereby do. However I also note that Locotus himself specifically mentions this case in the above post, and I thus expect that he won't enforce a chieftain-and-up rule (yet).

keep in mind, Chieftan is only 30 posts.

At the current rate, you'd be able to vote (assuming a new poll or something opened today) in one week. IMO - hardly a big deal.

[Dessloch]

what if some1 doesn't really write posts but only reads them like me???
at least till few days... I never like to register... takes time.. blah