Expansion Pack Civs (Part 3): Just one more...

[Locutus]

PLEASE READ THE RULES BELOW CAREFULLY BEFORE POSTING HERE!. Too many people have broken the 'rules' already with their posts, while they really aren't that hard to understand.

For historical purposes, here are Parts 1 and 2 of this discussion:
Expansion Pack Civs: One more thread... (Let's do it right)
Expansion Pack Civs (Part 2) (temporary thread due to forum problems, started by MarkG)


Here's a reposting of the original introduction plus the most recent overall ranking:

There has been a lot of debate about which civs should have been included in Civ3 but weren't and should thus be put in an Expansion Pack (if there will ever be one). In my opinion there have been too many threads about this subject already and it's getting tiresome but I decided to start my own anyway. This is because IMHO none of the existing threads is really satisfactory: all these threads are standard vBB polls that only allow 10 options, while there are many more civs to choose from and some civs are more important than others. That's why I suggest a different system, one that allows everyone to vote for those civs which (s)he thinks are the most important. Hopefully this allows everyone to say their thing and be done with it...

I suggest we use the following system: you can post up to 16 civs that you feel should be included in an expansion pack (no more since an expansion pack is not likely to contain more and because it would only be more work to keep track of). You can post any civs you feel should be included, whether it's a big civ like Spain or a small one like Liechtenstein You can assign points to each of these civs: the more points you give, the more important you think it is for this civ to be included. You can assign at most 160 points in total and 20 to a single civ (this to prevent people from giving a lot of points to one civ and thus disrupting the 'reliability' of this poll). I'll volunteer to keep track of all posts and keep an overall ranking in this first post.

Edit: a couple of new 'rules' to avoid misunderstandings:
* If you just post civ names and no points, the points will be distributed equally among all choices. So if you post 16 names without points, all choices will get 10 points. If you post 8 names, all choices will get 20 points. If you don't agree with the points I assigned to your choices, give points yourself in the first place or change your vote afterwards (see below).
* Edit2: Second rule no longer applies
* If you wish to change your vote for any reason, that's possible but please don't edit your existing post or just post a new list. This would be very confusing for me to keep track of. Instead, only post the changes you wish to make. FE, if you already voted but see someone vote for the Cubans and think 'that's brilliant, why didn't I think of that?', you can change your vote by posting 'Arabs -7, Cubans +7' or something like that. Please do this even if you still have enough points left, so I can doublecheck to make sure you don't exceed the maximum number of civs/points. So if you only 'spent' 150 points over 12 civs, don't just posts 'Cubans 10' but rather 'Cubans +10'. TIA for doing so.

Some example civs to guide you in picking your civs (by no means exhaustive, feel free to post others): (Africa) Bantu, Zimbabwe, Swahili, Nigeria, Benin, Ghana, Mali, Moors, Morocco, Ethiopia/Axum, Nubia, Carthage, South Africa/Boer (Americas) Eskimo, Canada, Sioux, Cheyenne, Apache, Navajo, Hopi, Olmec, Maya, Inca, Tolmec, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina (Oceania) Maori, Aboriginals, Australia, Polynesia, Philippines, Indonesia (Asia) Khmer, Siam/Thai, Burma/Myanmar, Cambodia, Mongol, Annam/Vietnam, Korea, Tibet, Tamil, Sikh, Moghul, Kazakh, Pakistan, Parthia, Bactria, Armenia, Arabia, Hebrew, Hittites, Sumerian, Turkish/Ottomans, Byzantine, Phoenicia, Fillistines(sp?), Iraq (Europe) Spanish, Dutch, Minoan, Celts, Viking, Polish, Austria(-Hungary), Italy, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Danish, Scots, Irish, Belgium, Portuguese, Basque, Slavic, Serbia, Macedonia, Czech, Swiss, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Goths (for more: see ranking)

Edit2: Some more examples (courtesy of Brent):
{Removed because post was too long, see elsewhere in this thread}


Here's the overall ranking (last update: Staszek, # of votes: 171, # of points: 23789):

#&nbsp	Civilizations                                   &nbsp		Points  &nbsp	Votes
1.	Mongols		1826	108
2.	Spanish		1822	109
3.	Arabs		1655	104
4.	Inca		1606	107
5.	Vikings		1523	97
6.	Turks/Ottomans		1234	86
7.	Phoenicians/Carthaginians		935	72
8.	Maya		929	71
9.	Celts		831	60
10.	Hebrew/Israelis		711	54
11.	Dutch		687	52
12.	Poles		641	40
13.	Portuguese		623	47
14.	Ethiopians/Aksumites		619	42
15.	Koreans		455	28
16.	Byzantines		390	27
17.	Polynesians		359	29
18.	Mali(ans)		339	28
19.	Austrians/Austro-Hungarians		320	22
20.	Khmer		298	23
21.	Assyrians		260	19
22.	Australians		239	18
23.	Inuit/Eskimos/Aleutians		235	19
24.	Sioux/Dakota		228	21
25.	Siamese/Thai		212	16
26.	Aborigines		188	13
27.	Huns		176	14
28.	Annam/Vietnamese		167	13
29.	Brazilians		145	12
30.	Apache		144	10
31.	Magyar/Hungarians		142	11
32.	Serbs		135	7
33.	Sumerians		125	10
34.	Canadians		125	9
35.	Swedes		125	8
36.	Neanderthals		123	7
37.	Tibetans		121	11
38.	Scots		120	10
39.	Slavs		115	9
40.	Zimbabweans		109	10
41.	Indonesians		95	7
42.	Italians		95	7
43.	Czech		95	6
44.	Minoans		85	6
45.	Fins		85	5
46.	Trojans		66	5
47.	Native Americans/American Indians		64	6
48.	Ghanaians/Accrans		63	6
49.	Goths		60	5
50.	Scandinavians		60	5
51.	Cubans		60	3
52.	Irish		60	3
53.	Welsh		60	3
54.	Nubians/Kushites		59	5
55.	Kazakhs		55	5
56.	Holy Roman Empirials/Catholics		55	3
57.	Mexicans		54	6
58.	Olmec		51	5
59.	Songhai		50	4
60.	Argentinians		50	3
61.	Nigerians/Swagilians		45	5
62.	Ukrainians		45	3
63.	Harappans/Dravidians/Indus People		41	4
64.	Hittites		40	4
65.	Anasazi		40	4
66.	Armenians		40	3
67.	Filipinos		40	3
68.	Belgians		40	2
69.	Catalans		40	2
70.	Confederates		40	2
71.	Iraqis		40	2
72.	Norwegians		37	3
73.	Muslims/Near East Asians		35	2
74.	Uzbek/LithuUzbek		32	3
75.	Texans		31	3
76.	Boers		30	3
77.	Amazonians (Native Brazilians)		30	2
78.	Bantu		30	2
79.	Danes		30	2
80.	Etruscs		30	2
81.	Iranians		30	2
82.	Philistinians		30	2
83.	Swahili/Kilwans		30	2
84.	Hmong		28	3
85.	Californians		28	2
86.	South Africans		25	3
87.	South East Asians		25	2
88.	Berbers		20	2
89.	Hawaiians		20	2
90.	Almerienses		20	1
91.	Bangladeshis		20	1
92.	Bedouin		20	1
93.	New Foundlandians		20	1
94.	Snake Mounds		20	1
95.	Tartars		20	1
96.	Ugandians		20	1
97.	Virginians		20	1
98.	Liechtenstein		17	2
99.	Luxembourg		17	1
100.	Hopi		16	2
101.	Cherokee		15	2
102.	Navaho		15	2
103.	Yankees		15	2
104.	Bulgarians		15	1
105.	Latvians		15	1
106.	Manchurians		15	1
107.	Sub-Saharans		15	1
108.	Swiss		15	1
109.	Tunguz		13	2
110.	Mesopotamians		12	1
111.	Caribbeans		10	1
112.	Fiji		10	1
113.	Iberians		10	1
114.	Javans		10	1
115.	Maori		10	1
116.	New Zealandish		10	1
117.	Quebecois		8	1
118.	Columbians		7	1
119.	Galactic Emperials (Star Wars)		6	1
120.	Papua/Papua New Guineans		5	1
121.	Sami		5	1
122.	Tonga		5	1
123.	Hospitaliers		4	1
124.	Khwarizm		2	1
125.	Fatty Lumpkins		1	1

[Locutus]

All, update posted. Now all votes from the first thread have been counted. I'm proceeding with the rest of the votes now. Because of the combining of civs, some people gave too many posts to the new civs (i.e. votes of the old civs combined greater than 20). Here's a complete list of all people who, for whatever reason, still have points left:

Poster # of votes left
Alfonsus71 5
Bob Dornan 140
Colon: 7
cyril25376 53
Fiera 10
Hasdrubal 20
Jer8m8 10
Monkspider 20
Nikolai 20
Optimizer 10
Orange: 10
star mouse 5
Tis I: 6
Vlad Antlerkov 10
War4ever 10

Waku,
No need to apologize, you can change your vote whenever you want to (as long as you do it properly, like you did).

Colon(/Snapcase),
I stand corrected. In an English article about Ghana I read not too long ago, the inhabitants were referred to as Ghanese, so I simply assumed this to be the correct name. Didn't contemplate the possibility of the author being wrong... BTW, I can't give your 7 points to the Mongols, they already have 17.

Colon & Lockstep,
I agree, Good points. See the latest ranking to see which 'lumps' I made and let me know if there's anything wrong with them. Lockstep: top 20 or not, each civ should be treated equally.

Nikolai,
You can't give more than 20 points to a single civ, so you're vote on the Vikings is invalid. I gave them 20 points and left 20 points open.

Ykst,
You assigned 190 points, which is too many (the limit is 160). I can't count your vote until you adapt it (please post your new vote below, I'll ignore your previous ones).

Alfonsus,
At the risk of getting off-topic - the Dutch Expansionists? WTF? They're one of the smallest countries in the world for crying out loud! Scientific would be more appropriate: though they never brought forth many famous scientists or discoveries, the Dutch have always been one of the most important scientific nations in the world (the Phoenicians would be more appropriate as Commmercial Expansionists as they founded colonies all over the Mediterranean and surroundings (the Dutch colonies were more trading posts than real colonies)).

star mouse,
You voted for the Aztec but they are already in Civ3. So you still have 5 points left.

Techwin,
As Markos pointed out earlier, you cannot give more than 20 points to a single civ, so I can only give the Inca 20 points on your behalf. You still have the other 5 left. Also, I'm not sure if it's my place to vote for others but in your case I know just the civ: the only major civilization that ever existed in Africa that wasn't (significantly) influenced by foreign civs (European/Arabian/Muslim/Indian/Chinese/etc) was the late medieval/renaissance empire of Great Zimbabwe. I figured this is exactly the sort of thing you were looking for so I gave your 10 points to the Zimbabwese/Zimbabwans/whatever...

Vlad Antlerkov,
You voted for the Bablylonians but they are already in Civ3. So you still have 10 points left.

Mercator,
In accordance to the rules, your points for the Mali/Songhai vote went to the Mali (Mali and Songhai were too different to combine).

Zeh,
You assigned 200 points while the maximum is 160. I cannot accept your vote. Please vote again and post your new post below, I'll ignore your first vote.

Jer8m8,
FYI, you still have 10 points left.

cyril25376,
FYI, you still have 53 points left.

[Locutus]

Comments about the second thread (BTW Markos - or whoever it was - you closed that one fast! Thnx for that):

Jer8m8,
Sorry, it will be corrected. I already noticed some mistakes earlier and for that reason already did a recount of the first 40 or so posts yesterday (there turned out to be a few minor mix-ups but nothing that had significant impact on the ranking as a whole). A recount of the rest of the posts will be made later (tomorrow or so) but I'll update your correction in the next update regardless. Anyway, thanks for the heads up on that one!

Rasputin, Seau & Gannon,
FYI, you all still have some points left (110, 75 and 40 respectively). I'll hear from you if you still wish to use them.

Brent,
Excellent examples, I'll add those to the introduction. Thanks for the info on the Hmong, I'll need to do some reading up on them... What was 'unusual' about your list was the choices you made: there's lots of 'big civs' out there, such as the Dutch, Turks, Byzantines, Portuguese, etc. and yet your vote goes to relatively 'small' civs like the Hawaiians, Boers, Tibetans or Hmong. By now it turns out you're not the only one with such 'unusual' preferences but it's still odd (in a good way). That's some pretty good Neanderthal city names over there!

Now, I knew this was gonna give trouble. You want the Carthagians and Phoenicians to be seperate civs, others want it to be one. I really don't know how to deal with this but for now the 'unionists' seem to outnumber the 'seperatists', so I'll leave it as it is (united).

Laros,
When the Chinese, Indians and Neanderthals are considered civs, so should the Vikings.

Here's once again the list with left over points, updated to account for the posts in the second thread:

Alfonsus71: 5
Bob Dornan: 140
Colon: 7
cyril25376: 53
Fiera: 10
gannon: 40
Hasdrubal: 20
Jer8m8: 10
Monkspider: 20
Nikolai: 20
Optimizer: 10
Orange: 10
Rasputin: 110
Seau: 75
star mouse: 5
Tis I: 6
Vlad Antlerkov: 10
War4ever: 10

[General Ludd]

Inca 20
Maya 20
Mongolians 20
Turks 20
Arabs 20
Celts 10
Korean 10
Sioux 10
Portugal 10
Viking 10
Scots 5
Ethiopia 5

[Vlad Antlerkov]

Hmmm, I did? In that case:

Vikings (or, more accurately, Norse): +5
Arabs: +5

And IIRC, the Harappans and the Indus Valley Civilization are one and the same... (At least, they inhabited the same area.) And someone seems to have taken your suggestion for Liechtenstein seriously

[Dugrik]

Change mine as follows: Mande -10, Malian +10

It was my intention to emphasize the peoples rather than any particular empire which arose and fell in their history, but I'll settle for 'Malian' if that'll make the points count.

[joseph1944]

I actually have a life and have to work to pay my phone bills and be able to be online in the first place, so I did some sleeping and working and other chores that are part of a 'normal' person's life (you should try it some time if you haven't, it can really be quite interesting )

Hey you are doing great. Hey I thought everyone here was retired from their first job (like me) and now working on their 2nd job (like me).

Since I'm a reasonable man so I'm willing to change this policy but only if you guys are willing to help me out a bit: which Civs should be combined?

Israeli/Hebrew, Yes. Israel has been called a lot of name over the centuries. But since Abraham moved there it has been the land of the Hebrew.

Ottoman/Turks, Yes

Phoenicia/Carthage, Yes

Kush/Nubia, Yes

Eskimo/Innuit?, Don't know enough about them

Hmong, Tunguz, Don't know enough about them

Americans/Yankees/Confederates, Yes.

Scandinavian/Danish/Viking, Yes. Are they not the same people before 1700/1800 AD.

Polynesian vs Maori/Hawaiians, Yes. Hawaiians are descended from the Polynesian

Native Americans, Sioux/Hopi/etc. No.

Hopi were part of the Pueblo Indian tribes, who built house with Stone and Adobe and they built them up to 4 stories tall. The Spanish thought they were Spanish home is the new world. Plus the Pueblo/Hopi lived in New Mexico/Arizona since 700 AD. Their civ has survived for 1301 years in the same place. They still live on the same land.

The Indian of Calif., Oregon, and Washington could be a group.

Nevada, Idaho, Utah, and Colorado. could be group.

Arizona, New Mexico, could be group.

Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, S. Dakota, N. Dakota, Montana, Minnesota, Iowa and Missouri could be a group.

Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland and West Virginia could be a group.

Virginia, North and South Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia.

Last but not lease is Florida. The Seminole Indians. Battle between the US and the Seminole (1818) were lost and won by both side for many year. Some of Seminole never lost to the US and in 1970 the US Gov. awarded $12,347,500.00 for land lost to the US. The War was finely over.

Please don't yell at me. It took over 24 hrs. to post this message. I tried 7 time last night.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Locutus
Markos,
Thanks for posting this thread when that other one started to act weird. However, as Stefu said, I can't edit the first post here and thus not post any updates. Would you be so kind as to untop and close this thread and top the new one. TIA...

I tried to point that out to Markos here, but he didn't listen. Always that "I'm the Admin and you don't tell me what to do " style

[rooboy]

Celts 15
Viking 15
Spanish 15
Australians 15
Inca 15
Maya 15
Mongolians 15
Arabs 15
Scots 10
Indonesian 10
Native Americans 10
Aborigines 10

[tniem]

I will try to make this as easy as possible for you. By the way this list is fantastic. Keep up this fantastic work!


Eight Civs, give 'em each 20 points:

Mongols
Spanish
Dutch
Incas
Vikings
Arabs
Phoenicians
Mayans

TIA

[StSz]

Austrians?
Austro-Hungarians?


We should rename them to "The Habsburgers"

I, as an Austrian (actually I'm an Austro-Hungarian), have to say that there is actually no civilisation like "The Austrians" before 1918.

The Habsburger family was the family who actually held the crowns of the regions and micro-states now known as Austria.

So actually, there was no Austrian state. The Habsburger familiy
only united the small "states" by having their crowns.

(Carinthia, Salzburg, Tyrol, Hungary, etc...)

However, after some centuries everything was called and united as Austria... (after the micro-rebellion of Hungary later also called Austria-Hungary ... or the K&K monarchy)

Nowadays the Habsburgers are banned, and Austria is only a small f*** state... Not worth to mention! (just kiddin. Austria is cool.)
(The Habsburgers were banned 1918, after the first world war... which they(we) have incited... he he he)

just my opinion..

PS:
I vote for Austria (or "The Habsburgers", if it will be renamed), and give it the maximum points (20.. right?)

[BeBMan]

Klingons=160 ...oh wait, joke

Serioulsly, 20 points for each of the civs below...

Spanish
Phoenicians
Arabs
Vikings
Mongols
Dutch
Mayans
Assyrians

[TechWins]

Locutus,

I re-edited my vote count, I'm not sure if you ever saw it or not. Actually I just looked back at that thread and it didn't ever account for my post. I'm not sure why, I posted before the thread was closed. Anyways, take away five from the Incans now giving them 20 and add 5 to the African Civ (Zimbabwee).

To help you out here's my new vote count.

Mongols-20
Spanish-20
Incans-20
Turkey (Ottoman Empire or whatever civ is from that area)-10
Polynesians-20
Mayans-5
Arabs-20
Vikings-5
Zimbabwee (the African civ you picked for me)-15
Austor-Hungarians-5
Portugesse-5
Brazilians-5
Sioux-5
Celts-5

[Wernazuma III]

It's MOL unimportant, but you should merge the votes for Harappan and Indus Valley People - Harappa was its main city.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by StSz
We should rename them to "The Habsburgers"

But the Habsburg were called the "Haus Österreich" (house of Austria) since the baroque ages.

I vote for Austria (or "The Habsburgers", if it will be renamed), and give it the maximum points (20.. right?)

Right, the Austrians were so much more of a Civilization than Mali, Ghana, Assyrians etc., who all range behind it...



Now for something completely different:
Why the f*** do people want another native american "Civ"??? - Even one is too much IMHO.