If not Mao, who?

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944

The Confederate wanted State Right to be above the Nation Right and they wanted to keep Slavery. The Union did not want the Nation to be divided. After the war was started, Lincoln decided to free the Slaves. No one alive in America today kill an Indian. One of my Great-Great-Grand Mother was Indians. And you; here you are living in Co. have full advantage of the US and yet you want the people living in Taiwan to live under Communism when maybe they don't have to.

What's wrong with China wanting to keep its integrity? If Taiwan and China join, benefits for both countries would be immense: greater market, more trade and technology exchange, and the cooperation between their military would allow them control of resource-rich South China Sea. Would Taiwan lose freedom? No. Just like Hong Kong, they would still be able to organize virgils for the June 4th victims.

The argument that no living Americans has killed an Indian is a pathetic one. 99.9% of Germans living today has not killed Jews, either, and yet Germany is still responsible for the victims's descendents. The only difference between these two genocides is that America won out in the end and Germany lost. This example perfectly illustrate the true nature of world politics and history: the WINNER gets all. Power is everything and moral values such as human righs and freedom only a propaganda tool.

Let me tell you why it is bad for America if China unites with Taiwan:
1. With Taiwan gone, the US would have fewer means to enforce favorable trade terms and its cultural values on China.

2. Taiwan will benefit China's current condition greatly, making China's rapid ascendence to world power even faster. China has the potential to become a competitor to the US, and the US does not want to see any serious competitor in the world.

3. By resolving the Taiwan problem, China can turn its attention to consolidate in South China Sea. Potential conflicts could errupt among involved countries. War is bad business, and the US might be drawn into another involuntary conflict.

The above three points are what US politicians really care about. They merely use the beautiful words like "human rights" and "freedom" fool everyday citizens such as you.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36


As for Mao, I think there are feasible substitutes, like Sun Wen. whose image is definitely not controversal. People in Hong Kong and Taiwan calls Sun Wen "father of the nation", although obviously this won't be in the mainland.

Actually both Mainland and Taiwan claim to have the true heritage of Sunwen and otherside to be the betrayer.

[lupusmalus]

Hmmmm, I think I have to amend my earlier statement a bit with respect to the US, I actually think the US decision-makers do care about the liberal values they propound, but they certainly never let them get into the way of national interest. The beauty of it is that in their view they never do because the US sees itself to have a "mission" to bring its superior way of things to the world, so what's good for the US is also good for the dissemination of these values and for the world at large. Thus, Taiwan falling to China would be a setback for both US interests and for the US mission. Conversely, in my view China still sees itself pretty much as the "Middle Kingdom" along the lines of the emperors who regarded the first western embassies as "tribute-bearers". Neither attitude is very helpful in finding mutually satisfactory solutions to outstanding issues.

And yep, after the acquisition of Taiwan the South China Sea would be the next step. And would China be saturated then? What, with all the territory north of her borders which Russia defrauded her of in the 19th century? No offence intended, but it all reminds me a bit of Hitler's salami tactics. And the US could hardly stomach a rival great power getting astride the important sea routes in the South China Sea, they have long held the view that to keep the international sea lanes open for the dissemination of US goods (and ideology) is a vital interest. Apart from the fact that these particular routes are even more vital to Japan's economy, And if they think it's necessary you are going to see a massive Japanese rearmament, possibly including nukes, I read somewhere that it would take them about 20 months to get them if they set their minds to it. All of which would obviously render an already fragile situation even more so. And here again China's bullying of her weaker neighbours who consider their claims and interests to be at least as legitimate as hers certainly doesn't help. Managing China's rise is going to be THE challenge of the 21st century, and in my view neither side seems to be up to it.

[Transcend]

Lupusmalus, respect for human rights and freedom is certainly one of the best aspect of American culture. Since America is very interested in spreading its culture to the rest of the world, it certainly has influence on the US foreign policy. But if faced with national security issues and economic interests, these moral values always take a back seat. Saudi Arabia has a worse human rights record than China, but remains a major US ally because of its oil.

The reason I used so harsh language against Joseph1944 is because he thinks that the US government is an ANGEL and has right to enforce order everywhere around the world. The truth is that the US can never be a just "world policeman" because it places its national interests above the values it's trying to promote.

As for China walking the same path as the pre-WWI Germany, the potential is definitely there. Both China and Germany suffered greatly prior to their ascendence(Opium wars, Boxer Rebellion, and Japanese invasion for China; 30 years war and Napoleonic invasion for Germany), they both demand respect and "a place in the sun", both governments promote nationalism, and both experienced phenomenal economic growth at one time. The only differences this time are somewhat better international cooperations and the threat of MAD. It it really comes to an armageddon like the WWI, you may well start preparing for the Stone Age.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Transcend

The reason I used so harsh language against Joseph1944 is because he thinks that the US government is an ANGEL and has right to enforce order everywhere around the world. The truth is that the US can never be a just "world policeman" because it places its national interests above the values it's trying to promote.

As for China walking the same path as the pre-WWI Germany, the potential is definitely there.

Angel; Not so. if you knew me then you would know that it is not so.
World Policeman; Yes. We tend to value life more then some countries.
National Interest; Sometime I don't know who running things, big Business or the Goverment.
Walking the same path; No they running the same path, maybe they should slow down and walk it.
One thing is for sure after Taiwan, where will they go next. India, or Russia, or Mongolia? When they do go after the land are you going to stand up and say NO, you have enough.
A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944

One thing is for sure after Taiwan, where will they go next. India, or Russia, or Mongolia? When they do go after the land are you going to stand up and say NO, you have enough.
A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

History rarely repeats. China today is led by relatively pragmatic moderates. President Jiang Zemin and Prime Minister Zhu Rongji both want to build a good relationship to America. Taking a tough stance now against China is only going to feed ammo for hardline fanatics. China is not ruled by Hitlers as of now, but may be well the case if foreign powers give the current moderate leadership a too hard time. A nuclear war between China and the US is probably the last you want to have. Also, if China really gets in trouble with Russia or India, it can only benefit the US, because this will give the US even more means to extract concessions from involved countries.

You should appease people whom you can work with, you only take the hard stance to face fanatics or zealots.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by joseph1944
One thing is for sure after Taiwan, where will they go next. India, or Russia, or Mongolia? When they do go after the land are you going to stand up and say NO, you have enough.
A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

or

Johnny1944, Transcend, lupusmalus: All of you have made some interesting and thoughtful points, but now you are becoming paranoid. You’re falling for the old B-s dominoes theory. It is completely ridiculous to say that China will take Taiwan, then the South China Seas, then India, then Russia, then Mongolia. And the comparison with Germany is nuts.

The fundamental problem with your paranoia is that China has been among the most peaceful countries on the international scene. In the past 40 years, China has not invaded any country, with the exception of some skirmishes to protect its borders. Communist China has only been involved in two wars since 1949. Both wars were directly on its border.

Compare that to the real warmonger and threat to world peace -- the United States. In the past 50 years, the United States:
- Created a puppet dictatorship in Vietnam, created a fake incident (the Bay of Tonkin) and then invaded the country
- Helped overthrow democratically elected governments in Nicaragua, Chile, Iran, Guatemala, and so on
- Invaded Granada
- Invaded Panama
- Invaded Laos
- Invaded Cambodia
- Gave the green light to Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor
- Provided names of suspected communists in Indonesia and turned a blind eye when the Indonesian government killed more than 100,000 people being killed
- Became the largest arms dealer in the world
- Financed drug lords in the name of fighting against communists
- And so on, and so on.

God, save us from America.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36


That is just plain bias. On what basis is your theory founded?

China claims land in Both India and Russia. Of course Russia and India claims land in China.

US wants to retain Taiwan as it's base in the Asia Pacific region and for domination over the world.

To my knowledge we do not have a base in Taiwan. I know we did not have one when I was in the Navy.

Where will the US go next? Hong Kong? Hainan? Vietnam? Shanghai?

We will not be going anywhere.

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by joseph1944

One thing is for sure after Taiwan, where will they go next. India, or Russia, or Mongolia? When they do go after the land are you going to stand up and say NO, you have enough.
A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

That is just plain bias. On what basis is your theory founded? If China is expansionist I doubt it would bother to negotiate for so long and with so much difficulties in the proccess for the return of Hong Kong. With this kind of arguments that does not have any rational analysis, u can argue anything. Look at this theory I m proposing:

US wants to retain Taiwan as it's base in the Asia Pacific region and for domination over the world. China finally appeases US by abandoning reunification with Taiwan so as to avoid war. Where will the US go next? Hong Kong? Hainan? Vietnam? Shanghai? Shouldn't we stand up and say NO?

If u can see any reason why my theory will not stand while your theory will, then u are talking. Obviously both thoeries are as ill founded as the other.

Paranoia and irrationlism does not serve a country good. It is those feelings which allowed the rise of dictaors like Hitler.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Tingkai

Johnny1944, Transcend, lupusmalus: All of you have made some interesting and thoughtful points. It is completely ridiculous to say that China will take Taiwan, then the South China Seas, then India, then Russia, then Mongolia. And the comparison with Germany is nuts.

China claims land in both Russia and India, and they have already taken land in South China Sea, it called Parcel Islands. Go look at a map, those islands should belong to Vietnam. And China also wants the Nanshan Islands, those islands belong to the Phillippines. You just don't want to believe that China is expansionism Country. Please explain why did China invade Tibet. Tibet was small empire before China was united country?

The fundamental problem with your paranoia is that China has been among the most peaceful countries on the international scene. In the past 40 years, China has not invaded any country, with the exception of some skirmishes to protect its borders. Communist China has only been involved in two wars since 1949. Both wars were directly on its border.

China invaded Korea to fight United Nation Forces in 1951. China sent pilots to North Vietnam to fight US Forces.

Compare that to the real warmonger and threat to world peace -- the United States. In the past 50 years, the United States:
- Created a puppet dictatorship in Vietnam,

The United Nation set the terms of the spliting of Vietnam.

created a fake incident (the Bay of Tonkin) and then invaded the country

We did not invade, we were asked to help South Vietnam by South Vietnam Gov.

Helped overthrow democratically elected governments in Nicaragua,

In July 1979, rebels overthrew the government of Anastasio Somoza, Somoza was at that time the last elected Pres. (Yes I know he was a crook). The US help (gave arms and money) the Contra to remove the Sandinista (The Sandinista were Communist). After the Sandinista were removed, Nicaragua held election and a new Democratic Gov was elected.

Iran
- Invaded Granada
- Invaded Laos
- Invaded Cambodia

Iran. We have never invaded Iran. In 1979 the follower of Ayatollah Khomeini overthrew the Shah Gov. and set up a Islamic Republic Gov., and then started killing everyone who had worked in the Shah Gov.
Granada;
Castro was helping (With Cuba Army) communist rebel to take control of the country so we sent the military to make sure that the communist were defected.

Laos was being used by the North Vietnam Army, so we bomb their army in Laos.
Cambodia; to remove the base camps set up by North Vietnam Army.

Gave the green light to Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor
- Provided names of suspected communists in Indonesia and turned a blind eye when the Indonesian government killed more than 100,000 people being killed

Both Clinton and Bush have only sent Gov. Ambassador to ask both side to sit down and talk. No aid of anykind. No green light for sure.

Became the largest arms dealer in the world

Actually we are number 2. Russian is number 1, and China is number 3.
God, save us from America. [/QUOTE]
God is forbidden in the Communist world

[YefeiPi]

Joseph? Your posts are so full of inaccuracies, it's disgusting. Just your first two reasons are both wrong, I didn't have the time to read the rest!

China claims land in both Russia and India, and they have already taken land in South China Sea, it called Parcel Islands. Go look at a map, those islands should belong to Vietnam. And China also wants the Nanshan Islands, those islands belong to the Phillippines. You just don't want to believe that China is expansionism Country. Please explain why did China invade Tibet. Tibet was small empire before China was united country?

First of all, did you know that India is actually pushing its borders against China? The U.S has made the Indians their allies and feed them with techs so that they can try to compete with China, and those Indians are right now pushing their luck with Chinese/Indian borders. However, China is a much stronger country in terms of technology and military morale so no worries there.

Second, Tibet was a small empire before China was united country? China was the first place where the first sense of a nation was created! Dating back to the Xia Dynasty, do a little research on the time period, my friend.

China invaded Korea to fight United Nation Forces in 1951. China sent pilots to North Vietnam to fight US Forces.

Are you mad? China invaded Korea? Haha (excuse your own pity knowledge), it was a war between North and South Korea, it's simply that North was communist and was supported by China, and south was supported by U.S and U.N. When did China start attacking Korea?!

Please joseph, make accurate posts. No one can be 100% sure of their information, but please at least be 5%

[lupusmalus]

Chamberlain also that that he could "do business" with Hitler...but yes, drawing a parallel with Hitlers's Germany IS nuts, but a parallel with pre-1914 Germany not so. No one wanted war back then, either, but what you had was a new power the rise of which inevitably clashed with the interests of the established powers, and that's exactly the same situation you have now. Back then huge parts of the population were disaffected with the ruling class, as they are now. Back then the government stirred up nationalism and desperately sought foreign policy successes to divert attention from the internal problems. And these problems were nothing if compared to the transformation China is undergoing right now. And the current Chinese leadership may be pragmatic, but so was Bismarck - his successors had some rather different ideas. And time and again history as proven that once a country gets powerful enough to bully its neighbours with impunity the temptation to do so is too strong, the US being just the most recent example. Yes, Tingkai, their track record is awful, but you can be damned sure that China (or indeed any country) would act in pretty much the same way if they could. That's not paranoia, it's just bloody human nature. It would be nice if China became a power able to stand up to the US, but by the same token the US needs to stay engaged in the Pacific.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by joseph1944

China claims land in both Russia and India, and they have already taken land in South China Sea, it called Parcel Islands. Go look at a map, those islands should belong to Vietnam. And China also wants the Nanshan Islands, those islands belong to the Phillippines. You just don't want to believe that China is expansionism Country. Please explain why did China invade Tibet. Tibet was small empire before China was united country?

The South China seas are widely disputed by a number of countries. China claims it as its territory, but has not gone to war to defend it.

Yes, the two wars I was referring to were Tibet and Korea. Both occurred more than 40 years ago and the decision to take those actions cannot be attributed to the current leadership in China.

Originally posted by joseph1944
We did not invade, we were asked to help South Vietnam by South Vietnam Gov.

Originally posted by joseph1944
Somoza was at that time the last elected Pres. (Yes I know he was a crook). The US help (gave arms and money) the Contra to remove the Sandinista (The Sandinista were Communist).

Come off it. He was a dictator.

So you admit that the American government helped to overthrow the Sandinistas.

Originally posted by joseph1944
Iran. We have never invaded Iran.

Never said you did.

Originally posted by joseph1944
In 1979 the follower of Ayatollah Khomeini overthrew the Shah Gov. and set up a Islamic Republic Gov., and then started killing everyone who had worked in the Shah Gov.
Granada;
Castro was helping (With Cuba Army) communist rebel to take control of the country so we sent the military to make sure that the communist were defected.

Laos was being used by the North Vietnam Army, so we bomb their army in Laos.
Cambodia; to remove the base camps set up by North Vietnam Army.

Why the Americans invaded these countries does not change the fact that the invasion occurred.

As for East Timor, I was referring to back in the 70s when Nixon and Kissinger met with Suhartro (sp?). A day after the meeting, Indonesia invaded East Timor. There is evidence that Nixon and Kissinger gave the green light to the invasion by saying the U.S. would not intervene

Originally posted by joseph1944
Actually we are number 2. Russian is number 1, and China is number 3.

Check your facts. And not all Gods are not forbidden in China.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Tingkai

Come off it. He was a dictator.

Yes he was, however he was the last elected leader at that time.

So you admit that the American government helped to overthrow the Sandinistas.

Pres. Regan was not going to allow another Communist Gov. to exsits in the America's

Why the Americans invaded these countries does not change the fact that the invasion occurred.

When a Army we are fighting set up a supply route and base camp in another country what should we do, just sit there and watch? We did not remove any Gov. from power.

Check your facts. And not all Gods are not forbidden in China.

Who said anything about Gods. I was talking our Lord God creator of Heaven and Earth, master of the Universe.

[YefeiPi]

Jospeph, just shut your pity mouth. Nothing accurate ever come out of it.

A side note; England PM of 1938 gave "Hitler" Czech and Slovak so he would not start a war, guess what happen.

You are comparing China to WWII Germany? What the hell? On what basis do you compare these two countries? Taiwan is more Chinese to China than Czech is German to Germany.

God is forbidden in the Communist world

You are an (I really want to use the F word here for someone as low as you are) idiot! I just realized we are dealing with a low intelligence person here, where did you get the fact that God is forbidden in the Communist world? You think your U.S is heaven, then live in your dream, you idiot! Many Americans are atheist, and many people from communist countries have religions.

Man your words are as worthless as garbage. Please give proof to everything you say, your blind American "pride" is idiotic.