If not Mao, who?

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944

Would you agree that it was the Dutch who move the first Chinese to the Island?

Does it matter? America was not inhabited by Caucasians first and yet it is now mostly occupied by them.

Yes you are correct.
There are some Polynesian that still live there.

They are a single digit minority and would not matter much.

The Ming people still today will not use Chinese as the name of their race. The young lady I met in 63 said her family had been in Taiwan as far back as Great Grand Father and there fore call her Taiwanese.

You have encountered only one lady almost 40 years ago. I have to spoken to hundreds of Taiwanese living today. Whose statistic is more accurate. Also, that lady might still be fuming about the Chiang Kai-Chek's rule.

Who need who. It sound like China need Taiwan more than Taiwan need China

Without Taiwan, China loses some foreign investment and maybe 2-3% growth every year. With China, Taiwan will fall into a deep recession. It should be obvious to any economist who needs whom more.

This the first President who has some roots in Taiwan and there has been some discussion in their version of Congress/Parliament weather to go independent or not.

The discussion was introduced by the president's party who control about 25% of the parliament. 25% may I remind you.

If the transition was peaceful, then we could ask for the equipment back, If not, it would be used against the mainland.
If some hot head became First Sect. of the party look out.

China is going to get the equipment whether the US likes it or not, just like the West Germany got bunch of T-80s and MIG-29s from East Germany.

But isn't the current leader the one who had control during 1989 revolt?

No, all Polit Bureau members had a clean record during the 1989 massacre except for Li Peng, head of the People's Congress. The current Chinese President, Jiang Zeming, was mayor of Shanghai back then. Shanghai was the only major city in China that did not have a bloody crackdown. One mastermind of the 89 crackdown, the mayor of Beijing, was already behind bars on corruption charges.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Transcend

You have encountered only one lady almost 40 years ago. I have to spoken to hundreds of Taiwanese living today. Whose statistic is more accurate. Also, that lady might still be fuming about the Chiang Kai-Chek's rule.

She propley is. My wife extended family were all the Canton area.
So yes I have not talk to anyone from Taiwan for many years. I do log on to their site from time to time.

Without Taiwan, China loses some foreign investment and maybe 2-3% growth every year. With China, Taiwan will fall into a deep recession. It should be obvious to any economist who needs whom more.

With all of our Company over there. I thought we were number 1 trading partner with them.

The discussion was introduced by the president's party who control about 25% of the parliament. 25% may I remind you.

Each Election may bring in new Taiwanese and less Chinese.

China is going to get the equipment whether the US likes it or not,

As long it is junk, we won't mind.]

just like the West Germany got bunch of T-80s and MIG-29s from East Germany.

The Mig-29 was not to bad, but if Germany had some T-80s they better throw them away or use them for practice. The German has the Leopard II and that tank is a good one. In fact if we put the Leopard II and a M-1 side by side, the only real difference will be that writing on their tank will be in German and our will in English.
The German, British, and US tanks are the best in the world. I would put Israel tank there also except I believe their tank has a smaller gun.

No, all Polite Bureau members had a clean record during the 1989 massacre except for Li Peng, head of the People's Congress. The current Chinese President, Jiang Zeming, was mayor of Shanghai back then. Shanghai was the only major city in China that did not have a bloody crackdown. One mastermind of the 89 crackdown, the mayor of Beijing, was already behind bars on corruption charges.

The whole bunch should get some jail time. I just want them to be some type of Democracy, free election etc.

[K.J.H.]

It's not very kind to face the victims of maoism with a grinning Mao Tse Tsung in a computergame. Civilization III got to be fun.

I was thinking ...
Jeanne d'Arc:
-> In Civ 3 the leader
-> In real history not. Just an French army woman in the Middle Ages.
Mao Tse Tsung:
-> Bad guy. Most people want him out of Civ 3.





Confucius:
-> In real history a Chinese philosopher.
-> May be a candidate for a leader in Civ 3? Joan did it, she even wasn't a leader in real history too!

I prefer a little historical mistake more when it's fun then a historical accurate game without fun.

[ancient]

Mao Zedong did good for a mojority of the chinese people and was essential in bringing china from the ancient times to modern times. that cant be changed no matter how much you dislike him.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Simon Loverix
Don't confuse Marxism and communism/Maoism. The last two are the practical implementation of Marxism. Marxism is the actual theory, in which was never included an actual way to run an empire, only the hypothesis that the laborers IN A CAPITALIST ECONOMY(not in absolutist, non-industrialized lands like China and Russia) would revolt and overthrow the government. Marx never was clear about what was to do AFTER the revolution. .

Just to point out that there were others (Kautsky, Bernstein etc) who had VERY different ideas from Lenin about how marxism should be implemented. I would think you folks who come from countries with active Social Democratic parties that were for a long time run by anti-communist Marxists would know that.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Transcend
eternity? Wouldn't it be better to change it from inside out? Deng Xiaoping had already changed the very nature of the Communist Party, and the current General Secretary is subverting its very foundation by putting entrepreneurs(capitalists) into important functions. I believe that the next generation of leadership(beginning in 2003) will start dismantling the surface facade of the "Communist" Party.

Then maybe Deng should be the Chinese leader, rather than Mao. Of course Deng was no Gorbachev (who BTW, would make a cool Russian leader)


LOTM

[ancient]

gorbechev is evil incarnate

[YefeiPi]

China is going to get the equipment whether the US likes it or not,


As long it is junk, we won't mind.

Haha, they are junk? you wouldn't say they are junk when they are used to take over Taiwan You are one of those hated Taiwanese separatists that I'm talking about, oh well, your resistance is futile, Taiwan will soon rejoin the motherland in glory while you chew your thumb in some dark corner and the rest of Taiwan are celebrating coming home.


Mao Zedong, despite mistakes he made in his life, he is one of the greatest leader who ever walked on planet Earth. My grandfather was a dedicated communist but was imprisoned during the culture revolution because of falsely accused crimes. He just stayed in jail for a couple of years and still respected Mao when he came out not because he was forced, but because Mao is truly a great leader. People can call him brainwasher or inhuman monster, it may be true to some, but to others he is nothing but a most powerful man who restored glory and a sense of national pride to China.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by ancient
Mao isnt that bad, sure he did do bad things but nothing bad enough to outway what good he did.. china was a mess now it isnt quite as much of a mess, howd they get there? staring with mao...

Arguably china in 1969, at the end of the cultural revolution was more of a mess than at any time since 1945. china is less of a mess largely because of Deng and others who have left maoism behind, while paying Mao lip service.

LOTM

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by YefeiPi

Haha, they are junk? you wouldn't say they are junk when they are used to take over Taiwan You are one of those hated Taiwanese separatists that I'm talking about, oh well, your resistance is futile, Taiwan will soon rejoin the motherland in glory while you chew your thumb in some dark corner and the rest of Taiwan are celebrating coming home.

The difference between you and me is that I actually care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people.
You must be very unhappy with your family for leaving China. You can still go back when you become an adult.

[YefeiPi]

You bet I will go back when I'm older. Also what do you mean you actually care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people, Hong Kong returned to China and is it doing badly? Hell no. You are just one of those few people who likes separation, anyway that's your opinion and I won't offend it but you know Taiwan will rejoin the motherland for the better whether some people like it or not. Why do people think it will bad? It will be better for Taiwan and the people there, do you know how many old retired Taiwanese whose roots were in mainland longs for home?

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by YefeiPi
You bet I will go back when I'm older. Also what do you mean you actually care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people, Hong Kong returned to China and is it doing badly? Hell no. You are just one of those few people who likes separation, anyway that's your opinion and I won't offend it but you know Taiwan will rejoin the motherland for the better whether some people like it or not. Why do people think it will bad? It will be better for Taiwan and the people there, do you know how many old retired Taiwanese whose roots were in mainland longs for home?

225 years ago a bunch of Englishman stood up and told England we want to be free. We will not let you run our country from Europe. We had to fight to be free, but we did it and now we are our own country.
Taiwan on the other hand has never been a part of China. The Communist Gov is the first Chinese Gov to claimed Taiwan has part of their country. All former Chinese Gov never claim Taiwan. I belived the only reason China today claims Taiwan is because Chiang inturn claimed China. The Taiwan Gov today is still mosley the Chinese that came with Chiang or their family. Wait until there are more Taiwanese than Chinese in the Gov and see if they want to be part of China.
Another thing I do not understand is that you now live in Canada.
In Canada you are free to do what every you want as long as no law are broken. Free to go anywhere you want with out permission of the Gov. Go to any school, work at any job you chose, make a lot of money, free to say anything you want except Kill the P.M., but then you want to go back to a dictatorship country Why?

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by joseph1944
Taiwan is a new name for Formosa which was settle by the Polynesians, and stay that way for several century until the Dutch found the Island in early 1600s and then went to China to get slaves and bring them back to Taiwan. From 1500BC to 1600AD not a single person of China lived on the Island. Some Chinese pirate stay there from time to time so the Chinese Navy could not find them, but they never establish a settlement there.

Originally posted by joseph1944
Would you agree that it was the Dutch who move the first Chinese to the Island?

Originally posted by joseph1944
Taiwan on the other hand has never been a part of China. The Communist Gov is the first Chinese Gov to claimed Taiwan has part of their country. All former Chinese Gov never claim Taiwan.

Sorry but I believe you should study some more history b4 making such statements. The first people from the mainland migrated to Taiwan as early as the AD 500's. Taiwan first came under control of a government from the mainland at least as early as about 600AD during the Sui dynasty, when Emperor Yang Guang conquered the island (it was called Yi Zhou back then).

The Dutch came only in 1624 and was only in control of a port in Taiwan. They were drove out after only 37 years (1664) by Zheng Cheng Gong, a general loyal to the Ming dynasty. He crossed the strait from Xiamen in an attempt to establish a base for the resistance against the Manchu's who had established the Qing dynasty. (Rather similar to the situation in 1949 with the Manchus as Communists and the Ming loyalists as Nationalists). Large settlements occurred during around the same time (1600's) but not bcos the few Dutch in control of a small port was able to kidnap enough people from the mainland, but bcos people were fleeing the corrupt and harsh rule by the last Ming Emperors and later the fear of Manchu rule. In 1683, the Qing dynasty conquered Taiwan from the mainland and administered it as part of China. This rule was not disturbed (for 212 years) until 1895 when it was ceded to Japan.

Qing control of Taiwan is not questionable. During the First Opium War English forces invaded Qing bases in Taiwan. In 1874 conflicts arose between fishermen from Taiwan and fishermen from Okinawa. Japan intervened by attacking Taiwan. Qing then signed agreements with Japan where Okinawa was given to Japan and Japan had to completely retreat from Taiwan. During the Sino-French War (1884) Taiwan was again attacked by the French. The terms in the treaty signed in Tianjin which ended the War included the withdrawal of French forces from Taiwan.

This would give you some facts to base your opinions on.

Originally posted by joseph1944
In Canada you are free to do what every you want as long as no law are broken.... but then you want to go back to a dictatorship country Why?

All I can see in your comments is American arrogance and ignorance. People are free to choose to do whatever they want in a democracy as long as no law is broken so why shouldn't they choose to hate a democracy? or choose to live under a dictatorship? Your ideas are reminiscent of McCarthyism.

Originally posted by joseph1944
The difference between you and me is that I actually care about the welfare of the Taiwanese people.

This is exactly what the US said when they went to war in Vietnam. And yet could they stop the will of the Vietnamnese people? Do you think the US is right to impose what they think the welfare is for the Vietnamese and the Taiwanese? As long as more people favour reunion in Taiwan now, I don't think any of us is in a position to judge whether Taiwan should rejoin the mainland.

I think we have gone enough off topic. BTW, what does everyone think the special unit for the Chinese should be???

[Transcend]

Originally posted by joseph1944
With all of our Company over there. I thought we were number 1 trading partner with them.

No Mainland China is the largest trading partner of Taiwan, although indirectly through Hong Kong and other countries.

Each Election may bring in new Taiwanese and less Chinese.

You seem to live under the misconception that native born Taiwanese refused to identify themselves as Chinese. The truth couldn't be more different. Taiwan's population today is already 85% native born, and yet only 15% of them refused to be seen as Chinese. And only the same amount of people wanted full independence. It's a fact that that Taiwanese see themselves as Chinese by an overwhelming majority(80%+), a higher percentage than the Scots supporting the continued exitence of United Kingdom. With Mainland China growing stronger each year, more and more Taiwanese, who refused to be a Chinese because China is poor and weak, will rethink of their attitudes.

You probably have been too heavily influenced by the US propandas, both in media and literature(Tom Clancy comes to mind). They put too way much emphasis in parsing the word "Chinese' and "Taiwanese". You better learn Chinese first and understand how Taiwanese and Mainlanders refer to each other.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Then maybe Deng should be the Chinese leader, rather than Mao. Of course Deng was no Gorbachev (who BTW, would make a cool Russian leader)


LOTM

No, and I'm also against putting too recent leaders as the representative of a civilization. It's too soon to reach a verdict on Mao and Deng today. Maybe in a few hundred years everything will be clearer. A good example was provided by the case of the First Chinese Emperor, Shi-Huang-Di. Decades after his death, he was condemned by the historians as the most evil man China had seen. His policy and tyranny had caused millions(1/3 China's population, much higher than Mao's damage) in an ensuing civil war. But after a few hundred years, he became more and more appreciated and respected. The same could be said for Mao, but again not. As I wrote before, it's simply too early to reach a verdict for Mao.