Britain in Civ3??? NO THANKS

[Lenius]

This is a very serious RANT!

It's bad enough us Celts (Welsh and the Scots) get tagged along with the English in real life, but doing it in a Civilisation game is going TO FAR. Not only do you do that but the supposed Civ3 Britain has Elizabeth I as it's leader, i hate to give you a history lesson but i'm gonna. Elizabeth I NEVER ruled over Britain. So called Britain didn't exist under her reign, James I was the first King of so called Britain but was no means politically united, in fact it wasn't for another 100 odd years.

Please I implore you FIRAXIS, don't include Britain just return it back to England. I may not like the English to much but they deserve a place in Civ3 on their own.

As a proud Welsh nationalist I simply could not play Civ3 if Britain is included.

[Seeker]

Why not change the name....? Presto, England returns.

[MarkG]

use the editor

[yin26]

And as an Irish mutt (I'm also Italian and Cherokee Indian and God knows what else), I feel this man's pain.

[Lord Magnus]

Re: Britain in Civ3??? NO THANKS

Originally posted by Lenius
As a proud Welsh nationalist I simply could not play Civ3 if Britain is included.

And lets have Quebec as a separate nation from Canada or else they won't play Civ3 either. I hate separatists, they're the reason for the violence in the Balkans and Ireland and the fact that the federal gov't here sucks all the money out of Alberta so Quebec can have more money to produce anti-Canada propaganda. Just work something out and put up with each other.

[Kenobi]

Re: Britain in Civ3??? NO THANKS

Originally posted by Lenius

As a proud Welsh nationalist I simply could not play Civ3 if Britain is included.

That'd be your loss, boyo.

But seriously, Wales had already been absorbed into the English kingdom, and Elizabeth was succeeded by her Nephew, King James VI of Scotland. He became James I of a (the) British united kingdom.

Elizabeth also came from the Tudor dynasty, which was Welsh, I believe. I agree with you one one level, though: we should have "Britons" or "English" and Celts". The Celts deserved to get in as their own civ, but that's just my opinion.

[tniem]

Hey were are all the Polish screaming about being included with the Germans through history and now in Civ? What about the Macedonians and the Greeks?


Come on, not playing Civ III because the English are included? So did you play Civ I or II? This is just plain silly.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by tniem
What about the Macedonians and the Greeks?

what about Macedonians and Greeks?

[Urban Ranger]

I am sure the Incans are really mad to find out they got rolled into the Aztecs. The Mongols are furious now that they are gone, and nobody from Northern Europe will buy the game coz the Vikings aren't in.

[Lenius]

In my opinion their should be a seperate Celt and a seperate English civilisations in Civ3. If their isn't going to be a Celt Civ (Ancient or Modern) please don't tag us with the English to create Britain theirs enough tension in this area without introducing it to Civilisation.

[SITS]

Whereas I don't really disagree with Anne Robinson views I do think with the emphasis on Culture in CIV3 having Britain rather than England seems silly. In the screenshot on the developers page where it lists Civ Specific Abilities it says English rather than British so I wonder if the Civ list is mistaken when it says Britain?

[MarkG]

it seems like the nation(in the civ list) is called "english" and the country(in the setup screen) is called "britain"

[kolpo]

I think that English will like in civ1 and civ2 been included just like the English not as UK. Especial because Elizabet is indeed an English but not a UK king. In the whole history of the UK has there always been some kind of rebelion in quite all regions they owned that weren't England so they are clearly separated cultural entinies and are not viewed as part of the English I think. I really hope they choose again England instead of UK because England is much older.
The fact that the celts aren't included doesn't mean they are seen as a part of England. Just like the fact that the Dutch aren't included doesn't mean they are seen as a part of the Germans(or Spanish, or French, or Austrians, or Romans just quite everyone has ruled them ).
I think they aren't included for gameplay reasons: Europe is already full and the English island is to small(in civ) for 2 civilizations.

[XarXo]

Nationalism

This letter is long, but I believe that could be good explain the background of this situation:

I'm catalan, and I'm quite nationalist.

In the past, Spain was Castilla-León Crown and the Catalanoaragonese Crown (known as Kingdom of Aragón and Count of Barcelona, by the shortest name, "Crown of Aragón"). Catalanesque, my/our language, is spoken in big cities, Barcelona (the olympic one ) with a 4'7 milions in its metropolitan area, València with 2'2, and Mallorca with 0'5, also there another cities. Catalanesque is the ONLY official in the tiny state of Andorra, is small, but is independent and, so, catalanesque is internationally official. In the last thirty years (Franco Decline + Transition + Predemocratic State) the catalanesque has grown from 5 to 10 millions of speakers and 6 million of catalanesque-base speakers. The castillians is starting to be strange (again) in some zones of Catalonia, thus castillian ("spanish") only was spoken here in these zones the last 150 years (in main cities, sooner of course).

In the XIII-XV we controlled all the western mediterranean, we had important people in the cultural spheres (Ramon Llull, one of the most important ones), we had popes in the Vaticano (we ressurected Rome The "bit-barbarian" valencian family of Borgia make a lot of bad things, but a big ones too!). In a short period, a catalan flag was at the top of the Parthenon, in Athina. We wasn't a superpower, but a "big one" yes.

Castillian is spoken by the 35% of Catalonia and 47% in Valencian Country too, but the most important isn't that the language is big and international, the important is that we are four nations (Catalans, Valencians, Balears and Andorrans) that respect the "Spain" ideal, because *could* be a great thing. In Germany there is a true democratic and federal state, so, here could be it too. Also, castillian (NOTE: "Español" name for the language was used in Spain the first time at 1927, the true name is castillian) is a *great* language with *a lot* of speakers, is a great thing, but it isn't our language, so we want have our own language in the top position, and castillian in the second too!

Now, UK started something similar with Wales, Scotland and North Eire, in 30 (more or minus) years the situation could be similar to us (but with a TRUE democratic system), and THIS will be the time to create a state where all the people could sense a relationship to it. Nationalism are uncomprenisble in USA because the only one that they have was the amerindians, and in the past were exterminate (Spanish Empire made the same with Incans and Aztecs, we aren't better!!), the only secessionist movement is in Texas, and is pathetic.

So, if you're lucky and your civ appears in the game, is a great thing, but when our civ (catalan) doesn't appear we think (OK; China had a big empire, USA Missiles, Aztecs must exist to full the empty America, etc...) an the more-known-one not too (Spain/Spanish), with a great past like has Spain, you think that we're again in a Anglo-centered game.

Zulus only were known by their wars with anglic ones, the same with Iroquese, in the place of them I preffer Ethiopia or Incans (The Birú) if you say me that "these continents are empty without them". So, please, understand us.

Now I believe that you can think as us, and why the Non-England ones are angry with the "Britain" name, and us with the "Spain" one. The good one MUST be "Castilla" and "England", or use the original AOK style, "Iberians", "Anglos", etc... Yes, they won a lot of wars, but we still here, and the names that FIRAXIS choosed (and some of the civs) are only thinked to reproduce the winners' wars, not an alternative.

If there is a problem with European civs, "Mediterraneans", "Nordics" and "Celts" could be prefectly the only three civs, and everybody will be happy. And for americans, "Colonials". What could happened if the Lousiana State emerged as a great country? "La Unité du Pays de l'Amerique", "UPA"??

[SITS]

First thanks for the great post XarXo - I learnt a lot from it. I've been to Barcelona and I loved the city and the people. One of the images that I still have is at midnight I saw a whole exteneded family - Grand-parents down to grand-kids playing boules (sp?) in a park. I was blown away by seeing this in a major city and I couldn't imagine it happening here. The only thing I really knew about Catalonia is ETA which is not a good level of ignorance, I agree.

I also I agree that the Civ's that have been choosen make sense only in game terms, which after all is how it should be. But in the real-world with real history they insult a number of peoples. What to do? In the end it is a game and will never satisify everyone - but as time goes by there will be expansion packs, mods from fans etc which should be able to address some concerns. Civ3 is an Anglo-centric game but that is where the current power is - doesn't make it right or fair but it makes it real.