Civs included. Just the facts madam 2.

[Provost Harrison]

Well it would certainly be strange if the Russians weren't included. Besides they have been in every other civ game so it would be very perculiar to leave out such a big player.

The Incas would be nice as well IMO, this time installed properly into the game, but it does look like there could be a decent amount of variation with which civs are actually in the game...

[Locutus]

All,
Paiktis unfortunately left the forums due to the problems he's been having with the new vBB system and he asked me to take over the moderation of this thread. I regret his decision of leaving but I don't mind taking over moderation of this thread. Oh well, at least he'll have more time to set up that private detective's office we've been talking about

vgriph,
Thanks for the heads up on that one! That definitely looks like a Native American Unique unit to me, but since Firaxis never specifically said that this unit would be the Iroquois Unique unit so there's a tiny chance it's not. I'll add it to the list though.

Andeiguy & Provost Harrison,
I agree the Russians were an important civ but so were the Arabs (and the Incans and so many others) and they didn't make it into either Civ1 or Civ2. Historic importance isn't enough, we want hard evidence in this thread. However, we already have that evidence on the Russians: a MiG Fighter which is confirmed to be Russian. I do hope Firaxis will spell it correctly though: it's not Mig but MiG (Mikoyan-Gurevich).

SerapisIV,
I agree, someone from Firaxis who played with the Americans has been messing with the citynames. That's something we should keep in mind in the future.


So far, based on our evidence, we know that:

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader (100% confirmed), city names, Unique Unit (F15)
2. GERMANS - Unique Unit (Panzer). Multiple text references
3. CHINESE - Leader (100% confirmed)
4. ROMANS - Leader, city name (capital), unique unit (Legion)
5. FRENCH - Leader (100% confirmed), dialogue window of the French
6. RUSSIANS - Unique Unit (MiG)
7. ZULUS - Unique Unit (Impi)
8. ENGLISH - Leader (100% confirmed)
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader (100% pharaoh ), definite text reference
10. INDIANS - Leader (100% confirmed)
11. MONGOLS (90%)- or JAPANESE?(10%) Leader * (see civ 18, Japanese)
12. IROQUOIS - Leader (100% Native American) & Unique Unit (95% Native American), city names, text references


HIGH PROPABILITY. This civ is almost certaintly in:

13. GREEKS - City name (capital), possible Unique Unit (Hoplites).
In the screenshot Athens is building Hoplites. In greek «OPLITES» means "men-at-arms". This word is still in use today in Greece and it still means the same thing as it did in Ancient Greece.


EVIDENCE ABOUT OTHER CIVS (which means they could be in or not):

14. PERSIANS - City names (capital)
15. SPANISH - City name: Salamanca (which historically was once a Roman city)
16. BABYLONIANS - City name
17. AZTECS - City names


SUGGESTIONS BASED ON CLUES (weak clues but we report them):

18. JAPANESE (open for debate plz see the samurai(?) unit at http://viewer.fgnonline.com/fgn_medi...tp%3A%2F%2Fwww .fgnonline.com%2Fmedia%2Fpc%2Fnews%2Funits.jpg
* Also see http://www.infogrames-expo.com/screens/civ05b.jpg Gheghis Chan of the Mongols or a Japanese leader? (All votes except one say Ghengis).

19. VIKINGS (?) Very weak clues. See above mention URL for the boat: Viking Longboat?

20. ISRAELIS. Apolytoner Eli has pointed out that according to a israeli site, Israel is in.

21. CANADIANS. City name (Montreal). The city name is NOT on the map, but on a civ 3 window.

22. CONFEDERATES. As refered to in a swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewell Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American.


--------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is categorized as such:

Leader= We have a picture of the leader of the corresponting civ.
Unique Unit= We know that the particular unique unit belongs to the corresponding civ
Text reference= The civ has been mentioned by Firaxis in their web site or in interviews by their CEO
City names= The names of cities that clearly belong to the corresponding civ are included in scrrenshots of the game
All other clues= All other clues are reported next to the civ name.

-------------------------CIV FACTS-----------------------

+Firaxis said the made NO official announcement regarding the number of civs that may or may not be included in the game.
+In a Gamespot article its says that civs will be 16.
+ An israeli site says that civs will be 16

--------------------------POINTERS-------------------------

The city names in the screen shots can be from an extra city names list or could have been arbitrarily written be members of Firaxis. So city names in screenshots doesn't guarantee that a civ will be in. Examples: Kerplakistan & Huntsville, possibly others.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Locutus
vgriph,
Thanks for the heads up on that one! That definitely looks like a Native American Unique unit to me, but since Firaxis never specifically said that this unit would be the Iroquois Unique unit so there's a tiny chance it's not. I'll add it to the list though.

Just a guess: we should consider what Firaxis told us about Military Leaders.
They should appear after a battle as a special unit (or replacing previus standard unit, I'm not sure about it) the player must take back to safe place.
(BTW, it sounds like Alien Artifact in SMAC...)

Then we know it can be used to develop better units in city (sort of military trainer) or to glue some units into a Stacked Army.

I can't exclude some supposed units showed on screenshots are in fact lonely Military Leaders on their way to home

The Native American on a horse seems a bit more a leader than a special horseman, considering how many feathers (is it the right word?) it has on its head

[SerapisIV]

It might be a leaser after all, nice idea, Salamanca isn't exactly a Native American city name. Also, an Indian Chief in a Persian/Spanish/whatever civ also helps eliminate the idea of a Confederate civ, an idea based only on a leaders name.

I sincerely doubt there's gonna be a confederate civ, we're talking about a "nation" that was never recognized by a foreign country, only lasted for a 4 year failed war for their independence. A confederate civ is the equivelant of having an Albanian civ based on the KLA in Serbia. Arguements that the Southern peoples have a distinct civ to the Northern peoples fail to recognize that they were still under one government. In Russia, Muscovites and Siberians are vastly different peoples to the point of being different races (European Slavs versus Asiatic), yet you don't see anyone arguing that the Siberian civ should be included. Besides that, Infrogames would never let themselves get drawn into a publicity war over the political correct nature of having a confederate civ, just look at the firestorm a simple confederate flag had in South Carolina.

[Locutus]

Adm. Naismith, you have a very good point. Also, Serapis is right that these leaders don't necessarily have to be nation-specifc. But in this particular case I'm still thinking the horseman is an Iroquois Unique Unit.

First of all, the unit is most probably on Iroquois territory as the borders around Salamanca have the same color as those around other Iroquois cities in the same screen (Salamanca itself is most likely conquered from the Spanish or whoever owned it previously). That greatly reduces the chance that it's owned by a non-Iroquois civ.

The second argument is graphics: as I explained earlier, graphics are extremely expensive to make, so I don't think they would develop graphics solely for the leaders, since these, as Naismith said, are gonna be put in a city and basicly left alone for the rest of the game. So these units will in practice be seen fairly little. Why develop such expensive graphics for units that are hardly gonna be used? It's much more likely that Firaxis would use existing graphics for them and perhaps give them an extra icon to indicate that they're special or maybe alter the graphics slightly: different color pattern, add a tiny flag or medal, something like that. Maybe they won't even use a seperate unit for it at all but will they make it travel together with the unit that 'created' it in the first place and will they just give that unit an extra symbol?

The feathers argument is very easy to dismiss: if more feathers means more importance, then why does the Iroquois leader only have 1 or 2 feathers?

All in all I must agree that you guys make very strong points but that I still consider the Native American horseman an Iroquois Unique Unit. I'll decrease the certainty percentage to 75% in the next update though and add a note that it might be a leader.

Serapis, personally I agree with you on the Confederate issue (I already made the comparison with the Basques myself), but it's as long as we know so little about Military Leaders, Avator's point could still be valid and I'm not giving up on it. The odds of Canada being a civ is also very minor but until we get info that proves otherwise I'm not dismissing anything.

[joseph1944]

I just did a quick look at the internet. Thomas Jackson (Stonewall) attended West Point Military Academy and was a Officer in the United State Army before going to VMI to become a teacher and later becoming a confederate Officer.

[Adm.Naismith]

Too many John Wayne 's movies...

Originally posted by Locutus
The feathers argument is very easy to dismiss: if more feathers means more importance, then why does the Iroquois leader only have 1 or 2 feathers?

Oh well, my whole body of knowledge about Native American is probably distorted by too many John Wayne's movies I watched during my childhood

Sorry 'bout that.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by joseph1944
I just did a quick look at the internet. Thomas Jackson (Stonewall) attended West Point Military Academy and was a Officer in the United State Army before going to VMI to become a teacher and later becoming a confederate Officer.

Smart research, well done! It clarify the whole point, at least to me.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

The graphic of the feather-headressed indian on a horse is no Iroquois, my friends. That fella is undoubtedly a plains indian, probably a Sioux (Dakota), considering their inclusion in civ2. The Iroquois, iirc, were primarily warriors afoot, and did not use the eagle feathers in the same way as the Dakota.

If Firaxis decreed him to be Iroquois - to give the popular image of Indians in the western concience a place in the game, to include the plains warriors, or whatever - that's their prerogative. But he's not from the eastern woodlands, in any case...

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
The Native American on a horse seems a bit more a leader than a special horseman, considering how many feathers (is it the right word?) it has on its head

Indian warriors could earn feathers by touching a living enemy in battle, by proof of bravery, thru ceremonies, etc. A big headress might be worn by a chief, but younger warrior leaders would also don them. The eagle feather provided a warrior with protection from the enemy (ever wonder why plains warriors are never seen wearing armor?). In other words, he might be a leader, he might also just be a warrior you'd rather see fighting far from you.

[Gramphos]

Quote from the newest preview.

The Greeks replace spearmen with Hoplites

This adds a textreference to the Greeks, makes it 100%.

[Gramphos]

paiktis22 is back!

Read this.
I hope he takes control over this thread again.

PS. Locutus, you are doing a great job, hope you don't mind for hoping the thread creator to come back

[Ecthy]

Do we really need other persons to take control over threads? I doubt we're unable to discuss issues without the help of others...

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Do we really need other persons to take control over threads? I doubt we're unable to discuss issues without the help of others...

Now paiktis22 has been doing a great job updating the list all the time since he created this thread (and the one before it). Discussion okay without that, but since this is a facts only thread I'm glad that he keeps updating the list all the times, in his not speculating way.

[Locutus]

Joseph,
Good point. In fact, I don't know much about the American Civil War but I understand that many of the generals that fought each other in that war were in fact close friends before and even during the war and there was no division between north and south until that very war.

Adm. Naismith,
No need to apologize, it's a good point in itself and I don't know much about Native Americans myself but I just want to see somewhat more solid evidence.

Marquis de Solaq,
Thank you for your excellent explanations on Indians, that clarifies a lot. It does indeed seem unlikely that the Iroquois would rely heavily on horses in the woods. That gives us two small but not unimportant clues that the Native American Civ isn't the Iroquois, the round houses behind the leader and the horse unit, while all other clues indicate that they are. Since 2 Native American Civs seems unlikely (at least to me), no matter what the Civ is, it's not gonna make much sense. I guess Firaxis' artists were at least partially lead by prejudices and cliches rather than by pure facts (unless I'm missing something).

vgriph,
The text reference is from a preview, not from Firaxis, and it's not a literal quote from a Firaxis employee so it's difficult to say how reliable it is. OTOH, I never quite understood why paiktis didn't regard the Greeks as a certainty, I always regarded them that way myself and this reference only adds to my own conviction. I think I'll keep things as they are, adding the text reference as a clue for the Greeks and reread part 1 of this thread to see why exactly paiktis still had doubt about them. Depending on what I find out I'll see if they can be added to the 100% certain list. If anyone else has an opinion on this, I'd love to hear it, this one is really 'edgy' if you ask me...

Yeah, I noticed that and I too hope that paiktis decided to return. Quite frankly, it's a lot harder to moderate this thread than to just post in it

Andy,
Moderating and taking control are two completely different things, but I doubt you'd understand that, just like I don't think I'll ever understand why postcount is so important to you. I already noticed your spam in other on topic threads and I think the mods will notice it too, sooner or later. So far I just ignored your annoying behavior 'cause it's none of my business but if you continue to spam in threads in which I post (as moderator or 'regular' poster), I will make sure the mods find out sooner rather than later. You can spam on OT or on ACOL or where-ever as much as you want but the topic forums are for serious discussion. Note that I don't like to do this at all (it's even against my principles), but I know this is only going to get worse if it's ignored and there's very little else that I can do. If you have anything useful to contribute to this discussion I'd love to hear it and I'll take your ideas just as serious as I take anyone else's ideas but I for one won't put up with your disruptive spam. I don't have anything against you and you never did anything to wrong to me but I'd like to keep it that way, so please consider this a warning (rather than a threat).


So far, based on our evidence, we know that:

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader (100% confirmed), city names, Unique Unit (F15)
2. GERMANS - Unique Unit (Panzer). Multiple text references
3. CHINESE - Leader (100% confirmed)
4. ROMANS - Leader, city name (capital), unique unit (Legion)
5. FRENCH - Leader (100% confirmed), dialogue window of the French
6. RUSSIANS - Unique Unit (MiG)
7. ZULUS - Unique Unit (Impi)
8. ENGLISH - Leader (100% confirmed)
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader (100% pharaoh ), definite text reference
10. INDIANS - Leader (100% confirmed)
11. MONGOLS (90%)- or JAPANESE?(10%) Leader * (see civ 18, Japanese)
12. IROQUOIS - Leader (100% Native American), city names, text references (75% Native American Unique Unit - 25% Military Leader) ** (see below)

** There are two clues that this Native American civ in fact isn't the Iroquois: the houses behind the leader picture are samll and round rather than long and square and the unit is a horseman while the Iroquois lived in woods and didn't rely heavily on horses.


HIGH PROPABILITY. This civ is almost certaintly in:

13. GREEKS - City name (capital), possible Unique Unit (Hoplites), text reference.
In the screenshot Athens is building Hoplites. In greek «OPLITES» means "men-at-arms". This word is still in use today in Greece and it still means the same thing as it did in Ancient Greece.


EVIDENCE ABOUT OTHER CIVS (which means they could be in or not):

14. PERSIANS - City names (capital)
15. SPANISH - City name: Salamanca (which historically was once a Roman city)
16. BABYLONIANS - City name
17. AZTECS - City names


SUGGESTIONS BASED ON CLUES (weak clues but we report them):

18. JAPANESE (open for debate plz see the samurai(?) unit at http://viewer.fgnonline.com/fgn_medi...tp%3A%2F%2Fwww .fgnonline.com%2Fmedia%2Fpc%2Fnews%2Funits.jpg
* Also see http://www.infogrames-expo.com/screens/civ05b.jpg Gheghis Chan of the Mongols or a Japanese leader? (All votes except one say Ghengis).

19. VIKINGS (?) Very weak clues. See above mention URL for the boat: Viking Longboat?

20. ISRAELIS. Apolytoner Eli has pointed out that according to a israeli site, Israel is in.

21. CANADIANS. City name (Montreal). The city name is NOT on the map, but on a civ 3 window.

22. CONFEDERATES. As refered to in a swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewell Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American.


--------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is categorized as such:

Leader= We have a picture of the leader of the corresponting civ.
Unique Unit= We know that the particular unique unit belongs to the corresponding civ
Text reference= The civ has been mentioned by Firaxis in their web site or in interviews by their CEO
City names= The names of cities that clearly belong to the corresponding civ are included in scrrenshots of the game
All other clues= All other clues are reported next to the civ name.

-------------------------CIV FACTS-----------------------

+Firaxis said the made NO official announcement regarding the number of civs that may or may not be included in the game.
+In a Gamespot article its says that civs will be 16.
+ An israeli site says that civs will be 16

--------------------------POINTERS-------------------------

The city names in the screen shots can be from an extra city names list or could have been arbitrarily written be members of Firaxis. So city names in screenshots doesn't guarantee that a civ will be in. Examples: Kerplakistan & Huntsville, possibly others.