Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[alexman]

Two new ideas, courtesy of kettyo:

1) What if we give cruise missiles the tactical missile ability, and AEGIS and subs the ability to carry tactical missiles? These naval units would also get the AI "Naval missile transport" flag. However, to prevent regular subs and AEGIS to carry tactical nukes, we would also give those ships the "transports only foot units" ability, and cruise missiles the "foot unit" ability.
(Note: foot units are used only to determine what units can be transported by a helicopter. But since the helicopter can't transport tactical nukes, there is no effect on gameplay, I think)

So, to recap the first idea:
AEGIS, regular Sub: can carry one cruise missile.
Nuclear Sub: can carry one cruise missile or one tactical nuke. The AI would use all these ships as "naval power" or "naval missile transport".

The major benefit of this change is to strengthen four rather weak units (subs, AEGIS, CM), but it also enhances realism. The AI can deal with the change, since it already knows about nuclear subs and tactical nukes.

As it is now, cruise missiles can be loaded into transports (probably an exploit). The human knows of this fact, but the AI does not.

2) All artillery units get a defense strength of 1. This prevents the human player from getting all his artillery courtesy of the AI (can no longer be captured). Also, the AI defends its cities with artillery (and usually does nothing more than that with them), so giving an extra defense might prevent an AI city from being captured if the attacker is one unit short.

I like both these ideas a lot.

Existing changes that I would like to reconsider (because the AI doesn't know how to use artillery) are 1) the movement increase of radar artillery, and 2) the airlift ability of all artillery units.

[player1]

I'm sorry, but all of this sound for me more like nerf the MOD completly in order to make AI play better.

In that case just BAN Arty to all players.

[player1]

As for cruise missiles.

Exept that somestimes it could be easy way to do invasion (with cuise missiles and marines), there is also probelm with consistency.

If you add Cr. Missiles to AEGIS, should you add it to Destroyer too?

Did early normal subs carried cr. missiles at all?

Which number is enough?

etc, etc...



P.S.
As for Statis Chamber.
Pesonanly, no version of Cure Cancer would make Genetic enough powerfull in order to discover it just for that, and delay needed spaceship tech.


P.P.S.
For wheeled, I think same as for def 1 arty change.

For any kind of build. upkeep change: never made difference for me.

[player1]

For Communism: have no clue, haven't seen any decent solution.

[Catt]

Re Subs and Arty

Subs and Missles
I used to play (long ago) a mod in which regular subs could carry 4 foot units, nuclear subs 4 missles (tactical nukes or CMs w/extended range), and Aegis 2 missles. The AI did use all the mods, but certainly not optimally.

For example, it regularly used regular subs to insert teams of 4 infantry behind the lines in a surprise landing -- but, as with all intercontinental invasions by the AI, couldn't coordinate well so the 4 units would arrive alone, without support, and be slaughtered on the goods guys' rails. (I had hoped that the AI would use subs to launch surprise amphibious assualts, but alas, it did not -- though I'm seeing more marine assaults with newer versions of Civ III and PTW). The AI also launched CMs from both subs and Aegis -- but, as with many an AI attack, it tended to go after the closest, most immediate target -- if war started and a destroyer was within range, CMs were launched at the destroyer; nevermind that a fully loaded carrier was one turn's movement away. In short, my experience way back when was that by making these weapons more powerful, it disproportionately aided the human simply due to preexisting AI shortcomings.

All that said, it is probably worth another go with PTW since the AI's targeting of enemy units seems to have changed quite a bit.

Artillery

No opinion yet. Trying to imagine how it would work in the game. Could unduly slow down an AI assault -- I'm wondering if using a few arty units, especially out-dated ones, couldn't easily divert the AI's attention from strategic targets. Kind of a variation of the worker bait game.

Catt

[alexman]

Player 1, thanks for your comments.
Please don't get upset for us butchering your mod. We're still just testing things out here in the AU, and lately we have been focusing on changing as little as possible while helping the AI. Any change from stock that would benefit the human more than the AI (like wheeled and artillery bonuses) are not in our philosophy for now. Your changes are great ideas, and if we make a AU mod for multiplayer, they will certainly be included.

Originally posted by player1
If you add Cr. Missiles to AEGIS, should you add it to Destroyer too?

I think no. AEGIS is the only ship of the modern age, and it's not even as powerful as a Battleship.

Did early normal subs carried cr. missiles at all?

Not early ones, no. But Cruise missiles are not available in the industrial age, so you can't carry them until you reach the modern age.

Which number is enough?

I think one missile is enough. Perhaps more than enough.

As for Statis Chamber.
Pesonanly, no version of Cure Cancer would make Genetic enough powerfull in order to discover it just for that, and delay needed spaceship tech.

Yes, I think so too.

[alexman]

Re: Re Subs and Arty

Originally posted by Catt
I'm wondering if using a few arty units, especially out-dated ones, couldn't easily divert the AI's attention from strategic targets. Kind of a variation of the worker bait game.

I'm not sure I understand how adding a defense strength can do that. Can't you do that now? Isn't the AI more tempted to go after artillery now that it knows they can be captured?

[Catt]

Re: Re: Re Subs and Arty

Originally posted by alexman


I'm not sure I understand how adding a defense strength can do that. Can't you do that now? Isn't the AI more tempted to go after artillery now that it knows they can be captured?

Sure can. But why in the hell let logic interfere with my point .

I was thinking about something else entirely and obviously didn't have my thinking cap on correctly.

Catt

[alexman]

That's always my problem around this time of year. Too many santa caps and not enough thinking caps.

Another random idea to balance Frigates and Ironclads:
Reduce attack of Ironclads to 1, so that they are encouraged to use their bombard strength of 4 instead of attacking directly. With the same movement as Frigates and Galleons, Ironclads are then excellent escorts and bombard units, whereas Frigates (with the player 1 increase in atatck strength to 3) are used to go for the kill of damaged ironclads or unescorted galleons. Do you think the AI will cooperate?

[delmar]

Originally posted by BRC
I think that Guerrillas could be made to pull off some great strategic attack. The marines can attack cities directly from ships. This does give them use, even if it's limited. I envision a similiar use for Guerrillas. Sneaking through the jungle, hills, or whatever to lay seige on a city.

Make them invisible?

You would probably need a guerilla-hunter that can detect them though. How about the explorer for this purpose? Two birds with one stone, so to say.

[BRC]

Make them invisible?

The more I think about it, the 0 range bombard is the best solution if we want to keep the Guerilla in the game. I thought long and hard about a solution similiar to this, but I realized that it would be more beneficial to the human. We would end up using Guerillas to rape the AI, which is definately something we are trying to avoid in this MOD. This could be used in an MP mod though, and could create some interesting strategies.

[delmar]

Originally posted by BRC
The more I think about it, the 0 range bombard is the best solution if we want to keep the Guerilla in the game. I thought long and hard about a solution similiar to this, but I realized that it would be more beneficial to the human. We would end up using Guerillas to rape the AI, which is definately something we are trying to avoid in this MOD. This could be used in an MP mod though, and could create some interesting strategies.

I am reading this thread because jshelr asked me if I want to play a AU Mod-based PBEM, so I made this comment based on MP games, that much is true.

As for making something invisible will help to rape the AI: doesn't the AI see everything anyway?

[BRC]

As for making something invisible will help to rape the AI: doesn't the AI see everything anyway?

I think the AI still is affected by "fog of war". Maybe we could get a second opinion on how this would work.

I am reading this thread because jshelr asked me if I want to play a AU Mod-based PBEM, so I made this comment based on MP games, that much is true.

Good. I'm planning on being involved in one of those games, also. Maybe someone who is more qualified than me should reply to the original suggestion. Sorry I can't help.

[alexman]

Originally posted by alexman
Do you think the AI will cooperate?

Let me answer that: NO!
The AI doesn't know to bombard other ships with a 1(4)-4-4 unit. It runs away from 3(2)-2-4 Frigates instead. So we can forget that idea...

[Edit: I just saw the AI use those Ironclads properly, but still, it doesn't happen very often]

[player1]

I think having 4/4/cost90 Ironclads vs 3/2/cost60 Firgates together with slight delay of Ironclads with Industralisation would make fine balance.

One extra attack point for 50% more shields (but still twice better defense).

Anyway, it would make Ironclads on average a better unit, but you won't feel that money spent of Frigates is wasted at all.

3/2/cost 60 unit will still be usefull.

At least against Galleons.

P.S.
And if you face modern Ironclads agains your old Frigates some change of tactic could be usefull.

Like bomb to hell and then atatck.

And 4/2/cost 60 Man-O-War could be an interesting unit.

P.P.S.
Just keep standard bombard rating (2 for Frigate and 3 for Man-O-War).