AU 107 Spoilers

[BillChin]

Wow, I have had four or five starts on Emperor level. Perhaps my best was my first attempt. I played the standard version several times, and the weird isolation version (no galleys) once. I have a hard time getting Iron Working, and Map Making in place in any reasonable time frame to get off an invasion.

Barbarians are terrible. On the standard version I have seen two massive uprisings before 1000 B. C. on two separate games. Taking out all those barbs takes most of the units, many workers and any built up gold.

One game I switch to Republic fairly early and discover to my dismay that I have less gold than Despotism. This due to the lack of infrastructure (roads and marketplaces), no military police, and only one luxury.

I think I am going back to the drawing board to find a way to launch an invasion before 500 B. C. under the standard rules.
- Bill

[Catt]

I've been very busy with RL and had little time to play this weekend -- but I am up to the end of the Industrial Age -- had pulled about even by securing ToE while the other civs made war, bickered endlessly, and dilly-dallied without focused tech research paths -- I kept a low profile as the number 3 or 4 civ in terms of land area with a heasvily fortified German border. The ToE boost didn't last long however given my much weaker infrastructure, and with tanks just coming on line and while planning my conquest of the world, I have lost the brief tech lead that I held and will defintiely fall back when both Babylon and Germany receive Rocketry for free soon.

@BillChin - I need to go back and review my early game and whatever early saves I have -- IIRC I researched BW, beelined to Map Making, dropped back for Ceremonial Burial and then Beelined for Republic -- only then did I go for Iron Working and even at that time I delayed hooking up my Iron until I had a large force of veteran warriors ready for upgrades. I was able to launch an invasion with Legions (and Legions exclusively) against Persia. It was a huge success in that I took several cities including their sole iron supply and the capitol Persepolis. With the iron gone, I knew Persia's days were numbered.

As is often the case in Civ 3 comparison games, however, I suspect that my results had as much to do with luck as with anything else. Persia had apparentrly been struggling with a long war against England (and perhaps others), because they were definitely the most backward of the 4 civs -- if Persia had discovered Feudalsim and Chivalry at the time of my invasion (which, given the timeframe of the game, would not be unexpected in a more peaceful environment), I would have had to try my hand at attacking the culture-rich Babylonians.

Catt

EDIT: FP - a great read!

[BillChin]

My latest attempt on Emperor, standard rules, is more successful. One key is having enough units in the hills to avoid the massive Barbarian uprisings around 1050 B. C. when the AIs reach the next age. I space the cities out more than usual to cover more territory to help keep barb camps from forming. 40 barbs can ruin most early attack plans and did so in two separate attempts.

I get the Persia Territorial map for my World Map. I launch an attack with about six Legionaires, six archers, two spearmen, three galleys, around 500 B. C.

With the Golden Age money, I am able to get Germany to ally against Persia. Persia does have Pikemen and Knights, but thankfully no musketeers. Persia does not have enough production capability to crank out Knights, and mighty Germany is soaking up many of the Immortals. The war is going well.
- Bill

[Catt]

Completely forgot to discuss a mid-game tidbit. Somehting really wacky happened to research in the later half of the Middle Ages. I was about 10 turns from completing Theology on a 40-turn / one scientist pace(already had Gunpowder on the southern route through trades) when Berlin built Copernicus and, in a cascade, the Babs immediately built Magellan's. So, the AIs had Navigation when I was still 10 turns from Theology.

I intended to ignore all optional techs and just try to get to the Industrial Age with RRs and Factories. After discovering banking, I could see that no one had yet research Economics - so I went for it, got it, and with a pre-build, was only a turn or two away from Smith's. Trading Econ brought me up to Theory of Gravity, but I couldn't get Military Tradition to save my life. I decided to skip MT and hope to avoid an invasion until Infantry -- it was a huge gamble because the hyper aggressive Germans eventually enjoyed about 10 turns of peace after wars with France and Babylon, and of course they decided to come after me.

With some musketmen and a lot of Legions defending, I watched an unannounced German invasion of hordes of cavalries -- I even took a screenshot which I saved as "I think I'm screwed" becuase I figured the Germas were likely to trim my Persian holdings significantly, if not kick me back to my icy home. I immediately allied with France (a distant power to Germany, but stronger than me at the time) and began rushing troops to defensible positions. The Germans took and razed one city, but the diversion caused by French entrance into the war and a careful war of attrition allowed me to escape with one city and dozens of units lost. I paid a hefty tribute, but escaped relatively intact -- I went for Nationalism before Steam Power, and riflemen forces ultimately held the lines.

It was the first time in a long time that I have faced a decidely technilogically superior AI force, and my apprehensions were perhaps overblown -- I truly though the game was basically lost. The situation reminded me (unfortunately) that the AI is just not very good at prosecuting war, especially in a battle of attrition where movement points and terrain features figure so prominently. A human foe would have kicked me off the continent in about 10 or 15 turns -- 20 turns later that AI had inflicted pain, but I lost only one town which I has later able to rebuild.

Back to the wacky research -- I ended up securing ToE with a massivley over-early pre-build -- but I was still the first to Scientific Method. One or more AI's had researched Sanitation, Industrialization, Comunism and Espionage (and possibly even Refining), but I am still a little surprised about how I quickly "caught up" through a beeline and then aggressive trading for the bypassed techs. The lead was short-lived -- many cities didn't have librariers or banks, let alone universities, but getting to the "Industrial Corridor" was a big boost in spirits as my previous experience indicates (again unfortunately) that it should be tough to lose with infantry in place.

Catt

[DaveMcW]

After my peace treaty expired I helped the Germans and their new English allies clean up the Persians. With just five size 2 towns left, Xerxes offered me 61 gold per turn in the peace treaty! Apparently he had bankrupted France, Bablyon, and Zululand in ongoing tech deals.

I immediately paid 51 gpt for gunpowder, knowing Persia would not be able to pay that tribute for long. (Despite my reputation I was allowed to pay per turn until I closed the diplomacy screen!) I traded gunpowder to France, Babylon, Zululand for chivalry, theology, education; and now the only tech I can buy from the leaders is Astronomy. I will ambush the misplaced german army when the last Persian city falls, and do it with equal tech too!

[Catt]

RL is keeping me from much gaming. I have recently launched an invasion against Babylon, taking, razing, and rebuilding cities with ivory and dyes on the northeast and northwest arms of the Bab's main continent.

Shortly before, the treacherous Babs had eliminated their long-standing trading partners, the Zulu.

Turns are taking a long time for me -- not due to AI lag time, but simply because I am making a lot of decisions and moves each turn. I am also prolonging the game needlessly, but in the interests of fun . I was the only civ with tanks for about 10 turns (allowing me to crank out 25 or so) but instead of a tank rush, I bided my time, building city infrastructure, waiting for an AI offensive (didn't happen) and looking forward to a Modern Armor rush a la SVC (just for fun). Finally decided I had to move on the Bab's luxuries simply because their superior infrastructure and control of the whole continent made the risk of a culture or SS victory too high.

I have debts to pay Hammy and Bismark, and my markers are coming due soon. My German border is a massive maginot line with infantry in forts on all the high ground.

I am not so certain about the increased AI mining now -- I need to go back and check earlier saves. I am beginning to suspect that the AI choice to mine in my (standard) game may have had more to do with the limited water supplies and inability to irrigate in many places prior to Electricty.

I have had the distinct pleasure of killing three separate AI leaders in this game.

Catt

@DaveMcW - sounds to me like you're kicking a$$ and taking names in your game - tech parity at Astronomy is pretty impressive

[BillChin]

This AU 107 is a real ballbuster. On Emperor, it seems harder than AU 106 was on Deity (which I did not finish, but was competitive). I finally start a game with a successful invasion of Persia. Then the Germans decide to make lunch out of me. I am playing standard rules, Emperor difficulty.

My hat is off to all those able to complete AU 107, especially on Emperor or above. I give. I've "learned" enough from this setup after about eight starts. I'll go back to random maps on Deity and see if I can learn how to win on that level (something I have not done yet).
- Bill

[Theseus]

Hey, Bill, take a break from it, but watch for my AAR (as I sloooowly get to it... very tight on time), and then please consider one more college-try.

The short version:

I re-started after a disastrous mistake as to early strategy. For some bizarre reason, I focused on the isolation, and decided to play builder *smacks forehead*, and beelined for Republic while waiting to be found (and what did we learn in AU 106?). Uhhh, hello Theseus, anyone in there??!! I still feel like a dope for my misguided first effort.

Rome: LEGIONS, militaristic, and commercial. As in, beeline for Mapmaking (find the AI civs, duh, and cheap harbors for a food-starved island), Iron Working (what was I thinking the first time ), and Monarchy (only one lux... can we say MPs?), followed by Currency (again, harbors thus gold, and one of the key levers has to be money and low corruption). Repeat: I still feel like a dope for my misguided first effort.

The re-start: Warriors and Settlers and Workers and lions and tigers and bears, oh my. I'm up to the 1200s AD, and am within striking distance of tech parity (maybe 5 techs). Persia is an OCC (but with over 1000 gold, yum yum), I've almost taken the NW Bab peninsula, and I am about to undergo the best AI attack I've ever seen, at the hands of Germany with mostly Cavs and some Knights. I'm going to bed to let my subconscious struggle with what to do (you'll all love the screenshots when I post them). Ave Caesar, ave, morituri te salutant!

Legions are awesome... I think we all under-credit how powerful a 3 defense can be, even standing up to attacking Cavs, if handled properly (i.e., hills, mountains, rivers, walls, etc.). They are also great GL-hunters... I have the Heroic Epic and five 2x Legion Armies that have been critical to my success / survival thus far. And conversely, a 3 or 4 attack (i.e., Legions and Knights) can accomplish more than you might think, given sufficient numbers of units. I've taken a number of towns / cities, even on hills, with either Legions attacking Musketmen or Knights attacking Riflemen.

Germany is awesome, btw, and Babylon is pretty impressive too. Re the AU Mod, I've noticed that even on 'good' land, the AI civs are mining more, althought they do the opposite of what we do, irrigating non-shielded grassland and mining shielded.

It's been a REALLY cool game (once I had put my damn head back on!), but I've only had chances to play the second time around in short increments, and I haven;t had the time to do a proper journal / report / screenshots (I'm with Catt... my turns take a long time, as I feel every decision is effing CRITICAL... "OK, built a Legion in Rome; homeland defense? MP duty? Babylon? Persia? Hmmm... if it goes to Persia, what does that mean for the limited Galley fleet? Who needs to be where when? Jesus!!).

I'll go back through it over the weekend, however, to highlight some of the best sequences.

[Catt]

Hey! I popped into Poly at the right time - people are still playing Son of SVC.

BillChin- it is an enormous ball-breaker. I came under a forceful German attack of cavalry against my Legions. An immediate alliance with France siphoned off some of the German offensive, but I was still losing 1.5 to 2 units for every German unit I took. France made peace with Germany (saving what was left of my reputation) only a turn or two before I would have been forced to. I felt happy and lucky to have survivied with my "Persian" Roman empire essentially intact.

By the late game, I started getting a bit complacent -- didn't launch a tank attack against German infantry and cavalry - figured I would wait until Modern Armor just for fun. Finally (just a half hour ago) goaded Germany into a war, discovered that they had already built 5 nukes and 4 (+2 in progress) spaceship parts. Now I have to take Berlin and hope to avoid being nuked (I haven't discovered Space Flight yet). Germany is a monster, a true "Killer AI" and Babs is not too far behind although I crippled Hammy by seizing some luxuries. In my period of complacency I was using armies (from the MA) to rush airports or marketplaces in new cities in Babylon -- consequently my attacks against Germany were largely through individual MA against MI fortified in metros. Been a while since I played a good modern era war, and crap! does it show. Bismarck has between 4 and 6 MIs guarding his core cities, and it is taking me 12 - 15 MAs to take a city. My slowly stockpiled force of 80+ MAs on the continent was reduced to about 15 after my first-turn assaults, but if I didn't take my initial objectives, the war would have been put in jeopardy.

Theseus - I agree re: Legions. For whatever reason, the random civ generator hasn't blessed me with Rome all that often. Legions are awfully powerful. On offense they compare to Knights, and on defense, with the proper terrain and tactics, took me right up to riflemen (almost infantry). One big mistake I made, and I chalk it up to inexperience with Rome, is that I built almost exclusively Legions -- even though I knew they were a dead end unit, I figured throughout that I would have time to build an "infantry" unit that I could upgrade through the ages at some point of peace in the game. The SVC start meant I was way behind in infrastructure, and I never really found the time to build an "infantry" force. With the German cavalry invasion, I was forced to defend with a few musketmen, a bunch of Legions, and eventually to research Nationalism instead of Steam Power and then to build a number of riflemen from scratch - I had so few units available for upgrade. Lesson learned.

Also,

Originally posted by Theseus
. . . my turns take a long time, as I feel every decision is effing CRITICAL... "OK, built a Legion in Rome; homeland defense? MP duty? Babylon? Persia? Hmmm... if it goes to Persia, what does that mean for the limited Galley fleet? Who needs to be where when? Jesus!!

Exactly. It's been a long time since I spent so much effort focused on wartime logistics -- but being shorthanded and underpowered stresses the importance of having the right assets in the right place at the right time. Even though the turns are taking a long time, I am having a lot of fun and being rewarded with an "edge of my seat" feeling everytime I tap the spacebar for the "end of turn" command and wait to see the AI's next move.

I will eventually post screenshots with an AAR, but I want to finish the game first - hopefully before I go away for a 3-day weekend Saturday morning PST.

Catt

[Theseus]

Still up (deal memo)...

The build choices certainly have contributed to the "every turn is a nail biter" effect... I thankfully built some defensive units along the way, but not nearly enough. Doesn't it suck when you've got a limited defensive force (in my case thus far it's been Muskets), and yeah, they absorb the attack, but DIE, and then you frantically scan around for reinforcements and there are none at hand?! AAAARRRGGHH!! Another reason to love Legions... with a surfeit, I don;t mind sacrificing them to get through a tough spot (again, screenshots to come).

I'm not surprised that Germany keeps on being so threatening... not that your preview in any way was a spoiler, believe me, after gaining control of the NW Bab peninsula (and setting up the equivalent of the 49th Parallel, Subic Bay, and Guantanomo on the forest chokeoint!!), my biggest priority is striking into the heart of Germany. Depending on my defense from the current attack (Catt, sounds like you got the same thing... it flashed in my mind that this is what an Arrian attack would look like), and also depending on the next few hundred years, I might go for a massive Cav rush.... no chances, no fear, no worries, like 40-50 Thundering Herd... and Bizzie-Marckie can eat trail-puckies.

My meta-game plan is to somehow get Germany and Bablyon to burn themselves on each other... given that thus far it's been me at war with each, I don;t know how to get there.

More to come re alliances, trading, embargoes, and whatnot. Toughest game I've played in a while, probably since the Egyptian Mess. FUNFUNFUN!

[DaveMcW]

660 - The last Persian city on the continent is taken by the Germans.

760 - Rome and England declare war on Germany. It is knights vs. musketmen, a brutal war of attrition that slows the research of the three biggest continental powers to a standstill. Babylon is the only one left, and is soon so far ahead that no one can afford their newest techs.

1050 - The Babylonians' demand is refused and they declare war. Rome ignores them for the rest of the game, easily crushing their four attempts to land on the lightly defended ancestral Roman island. They finally fall into communism after getting so far ahead in tech that it doesn't matter.

1160 - The first German cavalry is sighted.

1270 - The Roman knights finally sieze the last German saltpeter mine and quickly sue for peace, getting the Militarty Tradition tech branch at a discount price. The Germans will never build cavalry again.

1300 - The Russians declare war on Rome, but with an increase in Elizabeth's resource bribes the invaders never make it through English territory.

1320 - Babylon declares war on Zululand

1370 - The German peace treaty is not renewed, and Roman Elites begin training on German longbowmen. The Babylonians have long ago claimed the Great Wonders, but small wonders and Cavalry armies are better than nothing.

1420 - The last German city on the continent is taken by the Romans. Bismark grudginly agrees to part with nationalism for 700 gold (the other AIs charge thousands). The English are upgraded from ally to MPP.

1430 - The French have fallen so behind in the tech race that they can't afford Nationalism. The Roman Cavalry quickly begin dismantling the Musketeer defenses.

1465 - After siezing their 5th luxury, incense, the Romans switch to Republic.

1495 - The French have been defeated. Babylon takes the last Zulu city on their continent

1545 - The Romans declare war on everyone who is left.

1585 - The entire main continent has been cleared. The Romans buy Steam Power from a dying England, then backstab Lizzie and finish the job. Ships are rush-built to finish off the island holdouts, and Settlers travel by rail to fill in the large burnt spots on the map.

1640 - Domination Victory


France had a terrible start position, even worse than Rome. Their mass mining never paid off because the cities never grew past size 6.

Even though I avoided the Babylonian continent, after-game research showed they did not have Replaceable Parts so my Cavalry hordes would still have easily won an invasion. It was interesting to see how the killer Babylonian AI slowed to a halt as the economy of their vassal civs was destroyed. Tech parity by destruction beats parity by trade, at least on an 8-civ map.

Maybe I'll restart and try the peaceful builder Tank/MA strat on Emperor, to take a break from all that unit movement every turn. But somehow that seems tougher than a warmonger on Diety...

[DaveMcW]

The Saltpeter Assault Squad gets a nasty surprise...

[DaveMcW]

The German war opened with a ying-yang shaped offensive as both sides tried to attach each others' weak points.

With only a single Musketman in Virconium, the Romans rushed city walls and sent in unupgraded horsemen hoping that the Germans couldn't kill them all in one turn.

But after seeing seeing the Musketman+Fortified+Walls+GreatWall combo win six straight rounds against its buddies, the wounded Knight army wisely retreated.

[DaveMcW]

Berlin culture flipped three times before I could build up 10 culture in the city. But it was all worth it in the end...

[Catt]

@DaveMcW - excellent campaign - domination in 1640 AD

I'm still not convinced that I have this game beat, but we will see. My MA aassault on Germany resulted in me taking 5 core German cities -- the first 3 each had 23 resistors! I had stockpiled 9 settlers, and at the end of the turn, went back, sold all the improvements from the German cities, positioned my settlers, abandoned the German cities and rebuilt Roman cities. The assualt isolated a German outpost to the north, secured wines for the Romans, and put Roman armor within striking distance of both Berlin and some gem mines. Babylon had thoughtfully declared war on Germany 5 turns before my goading resulted in a German declaration, and even though many German border forces pulled awaty to deal with invading Babylonians, I still struggled against MIs fortified in metros. I destroyed 2 ICBMs in my initial assault.

Then Bismarck pulled out his big guns, and two of my largest cities in old Persia were nuked. Suprisingly, France, a longtime peaceful partner, did not immediately declare war on Germany (as I expected in case of a nuclear attack). My assault paused for breath and to heal, and then took Germany's gems and began the bombardment of Berlin. Berlin contained the Pyramids, Sun Tzus and Copernicus, and I did not want to abandon it so I needed to bring it down from its 25 pop to about 6 - 8, and then rush and disband settlers -- even if it flipped once or twice, I figured once I got it down to 1 or 2 German citizens, I could take and hold it. Successive bombardments reduced the pop to 16, and then Hammurabi helpfully nuked Berlin (I still haven't researched or traded for Space Flight let alone the nuclear techs). I took Berlin the next turn, and am rushing my first settler to bring it from size 7 to 5. One or two more rushed settlers and it will be mine.

The German spaceship was destroyed, but I now see that Babylon is building its first 4 parts. I will need to destroy the last of German core cities and then get forces over to Babylon for some fun and games (I am now researching Nuclear Power with one scientist, and expect WW to eventually force me into a Monarchy, but I hope to extort Space Flight from Germany in a peace treaty, and then be in a position to trade Nuclear Power to Hammy for Satellites and/or Superconductor just before my forces march on Babylon. Fun game, but defintiely a ball-breaker and definitley a long time commitment.

Catt