AU 106 Spoilers

[Jawa Jocky]

I played Persia on Emperor with the standard.bic

I had bad luck right from the start. My 1st warrior ticked off some natives and got killed. The remaining barb came down to my Capital and killed my 2nd warrior and destroyed my 1st settler durning construction. A few turns later and the same thing happens again (ouch). I believe this qualifies me for the "Worst Start on AU 107 Award".

Here was my starting strategy.

1) Set science to max (w/o wasting gold) and beelined for literacy. I figured it would help science and would be a cheaper 1st build to get culture.

2) I was also rexing to fill out my island and building 1 warrior and 1 spear for every city (I needed the MP since I had no temples).

3) After libraries I built temples and beelined for currency to get marketplaces.

4) Beelined for Republic and changed govt.

5) Beelined for construction since most cities were around 6.

6) At this point I reset science to 4 turns and went for some lower techs and built up gold reserves.

7) beelined for universities and banks.

Around 1400 I made contact with some passing French. Did some diplomacy and yada yada yada. My poor start and questionable science routes resulted in NO wonders. The French, Iroquis, Egyptians are ahead in tech (I'm about the normal amount behind for me). The Greeks are huge and way to strong to attack. I have my choice of taking Germany or Japan (both really far away).

I have lost interest in this game. My AU 105 late game is exactly how this game will play out for me, and I don't really feel like repeating it. I had a lot of fun until contact so it was certainly a worthwhile endevor

[Catt]

Originally posted by nbarclay
When I switched to Republic, my capital was able to go to size twelve with the happiness slider at 30%, and I'm pretty sure several other cities did as well even before I got the tech for colloseums. (The fact that at that size, my cities were invariably working a few coast, river, and/or wine tiles helped.)

Wow! That's more than I ever would have expected -- I need to experiment with the luxury slider (maybe it is much more powerful in the ancient age).

I did the same calculations as you -- i.e., Monarchy on Emperor means 6 content in ancient age (1 born, 1 temple, 3 MPs, 1 lux) -- I figured with the HG I would have a free ride to 7, with the HG-building city at 9. By the time my cities could get to 11 or twelve I would have the opportunity to build colosseums (since I needed Construction for aqueducts).

Comparatively, I figured with Republic on Emperor I would be hitting the luxury slider at pop 4 (1 born, 1 temple, 1 lux) and would need to beeline fairly quickly towards Construction to get colosseums. I "by-the-seat-of-my-pants" figured that I would be spending an awful lot on entertainment spending to keep even moderately-sized (size 6 -8) "wonder-capable" cities around -- I was obviously wrong if you got up to 12 with a 30% slider.

Slight change of subject and to repeat a question from my earlier spoiler: Has anyone done any tests to determine whether a happy empire enjoys a shorted anarchy between gov switchs? SContinued silence will be interpreted as a "no." I was really surprised with a 3-turn anarchy from Mon to Rep, and may go back and fidlle wioth happiness (by selling improvements, etc.) to see if the anarchy length moves in any other than a random fashion.

Catt

[Dominae]

I would like to echo Theseus' comment about the variability between AI civ strengths in our games. Although there are some clear trends (Egyptians wiping out the Chinese), a lot of games look really different by the time contact is made.

Is this variability entirely due to randomness in combat, or does the AI make random decisions? It would seem to me that, for example, attacking a neighbour is assigned a probability (based on a bunch of factors we can all guess at), so it is never a sure thing.

What do you think?


Dominae

[Catt]

Originally posted by Theseus
As a republic, I got pretty much all of my towns / cities to their max size fairly easily... the cost however, was that I didn;t really have much WLTKD until I started kicking medieval age butt. If I remember, at 10-30% luxury, with colosseums, cathedrals, and marketplaces (in that order, as soon as available):

Towns: 2 happy, 3 content, 1 unhappy
Cities: 4 happy, 6 content, 2 unhappy

I also definitely had money troubles, but that was my own fault for building such as massive standing military under Republic, and possibly from the later than normal marketplaces.

So it seems that you didn't have much of a problem either.

Although you mention cathedrals as well - I was going to be comfortable in a Republic with cathedrals which I figured was free ride to 8 (1 born, 1 temple, 3 cathedral, 2 colosseum, 1 lux) - selective use of the luxury slider could take care of a few more ensuring no riots in designated super-production cities. But I really wanted to get out from under the despotism tile penalty as soon as reasonably possible, and just didn't think I could do it satisfactorily before having at least colosseums and preferably cathedrals (although I did not want to wait until completely exiting the ancient age to make the switch).

I may go back and play the opening with a beeline for Republic to see a comparison.

Originally posted by Jawa Jocky
I had bad luck right from the start. . . .

That's a terrible string of luck JJ and I am not surprised that it essentially left you well, well back in the pack. Significant hits in the very early game are crushing.

At least you had the additional pleasure of listening to a fussy baby's screams while you yelled at the monitor .

Catt

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Theseus
AI civ performance is so different in these games!!

You are right, next time I'll do better research before going out drawing conclusions from about two games...

I just checked: Anarchy time for my switch from Despotism to Republic was 4 turns, regardless of whether all cities were happy or nearly all rioting.

Originally posted by Catt
I may go back and play the opening with a beeline for Republic to see a comparison.

I managed to get a 3-tech-lead at contact (960AD, compared to Egypt, more for the rest) in my game but I wonder whether it had more to do with the early switch to Republic (250BC) or the GA immediately after the switch. But one way or the other it would be hard to do on Monarchy.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Killerdaffy

I just checked: Anarchy time for my switch from Despotism to Republic was 4 turns, regardless of whether all cities were happy or nearly all rioting.

Cool, thanks.

I managed to get a 3-tech-lead at contact (960AD, compared to Egypt, more for the rest) in my game but I wonder whether it had more to do with the early switch to Republic (250BC) or the GA immediately after the switch. But one way or the other it would be hard to do on Monarchy.

What level did you play KD? I think your contact at 960 AD has everyone beat by a mile! Good job and great write-up.

Catt

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Theseus

Olaf, I think you may have simply overextended yourself... to the point where 1) you couldn;t do enough to get attacked AI civs back into good diplo relations, 2) you couldn't build enough to have a happy and productive empire, and 3) as a result, you couldn't keep up in tech, nor build enough military to hold onto your spoils... then you got into a negative spiral, where each loss / weakening tipped the balance in favor of the AI civs feasting on your ragged position. Have no fear though, I'm sure you can find a way to break out.

I agree that I overextended by not focusing on one enemy at a time, but I wouldn't be to sure about the rest.

1) I have not started a single war. They started them all, sometimes when they where polite with me. 2) All my cities have been fully developed since late medieval. Factories then came quickly in my GA triggered by Suffrage. The only thing I haven't built are coal plants, but I intend to get Hoover any turn. 3) All my mainland cities have been building units since I researched military tradition. The reason I have a tough time holding on to my outposts is that they are spread on five continents. In retrospect, it would have been better to focus on one continent at a time.

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Catt
Cool, thanks.

I don't know if this will hold for any case, we should check this out more thoroughly. I just learned again about drawing conclusions from a two game sample (eh, confidence level something like 10%??)

What level did you play KD? I think your contact at 960 AD has everyone beat by a mile! Good job and great write-up.

Catt

I always play Emperor. The majority of the people in this thread waited to be discovered, to make the most of the GL. I wanted to use the cheap universities, so I went Education immediately. Also, I got the Colossus, Pyramids and had my GA the turn I entered Republic in 250BC (I had to slow my building of the GL for that). After the GA I had all core cities built up with Libraries, Temples, Marketplaces & Aqueducts (in that order). That gave me an edge early on, even though some people might more than make up for that with a later, better timed GA.

Just checking out the game as Romans, since hardly anybody tried this so far.

[Theseus]

Olaf, I didn't mean to knock your skills ( ), I was just trying to develop a theory of why everyone hated you.

KD, I also am impressed by your game. I think those of you that went hard for Navigation made the right call.

Catt, I seem to remember (in the dusty halls of, oh, the spring ), that the period of anarchy was suspected to be determined by 1) happiness and 2) foreign nationals. I don;t think anyone has developed a full understanding of it.

[Theseus has visions of "The Fundamentals of Anarchy" or "Everything you wanted to know about anarchy" ]

[Catt]

Originally posted by Killerdaffy


I don't know if this will hold for any case, we should check this out more thoroughly. I just learned again about drawing conclusions from a two game sample (eh, confidence level something like 10%??)

Oh I won't take it as definitive, but it's interesting to note as one data point. I'll play with my game a bit and see if it varies.

I think the real test would need to be done with a saved game with "Preserve Random Seed" off and under a wide variety of circumstances (different empire sizes, different nationalities, different unahppiness reasons, etc.) -- much more than I want to bite off and chew.

If there were any correlation I suspect it would be easily exploitable - jack up the entertainment slider for a turn before the revolution and boom! shorter anarchies. This would strike me as a pretty big loophole / exploit.

Catt

[CorpusScorpius]

I did a replay as the Persians (19citites) on Monarchy(mod) & tried for a Space Ship victory. I was in the tech lead up until MA & the French, Iroqouis,& Greece (the monster civ) caught up & surpassed me(2 different replays).
The first replay, that damn french woman achieved a space ship launch in the early 1500's & i had only built about half of the Space ship parts. Once the AI got ahead in techs they Bogarted them but swapped techs with each other like lovers. ( I guess Xerxes was NOT Attractive) Espionage stunk up the joint Blew 12000 for nothing

The second replay went a little better, (built 8 space ship parts) but the Casino Man was the first to launch also in the early 1500's. My one tip for trying to achieve A space ship victory would be to research the bottom half of the Modern Age Techs first, the AI seems to like the top half.

[CorpusScorpius]

I also didnt wait for first contact & outresearched the AI until the Modern Age.

[Dominae]

Well, I've finally finished this game, sadly with a whimper rather than a bang. I'll give a brief description of my my end-game, and then a list of things I learned by playing AU-106.

My Cavalry forces reach their peak size in 1500AD and I easily overrun the Greeks, conquering about 2 cities per turn until they're completely banished from their original (relatively huge) continent in 1545AD. I decide to try abandoning most of the cities and rebuilding them with Persian Settlers to avoid flips. This opens a few patches of land for the Egyptians and Iroquois to steal, but they eventually fall to my superior culture. I use the suggestion I heard on another thread and build my FP on my main continent, and rush build the Palace on the Greek continent (located in the middle of the crescent-shape).

At this point my Cavalry units are itching to fight (or is that me?!?) so I look for somewhere else to conquer. Since the French are slightly ahead of me now in tech, I decide to ship all my forces to the continent South of the main French and German landmasses, which Joan has recently claimed. I don't have any trouble conquering this continent either, but the choice turns out to be a bad one. The new cities are hopelessly corrupt, and they didn't seem to be helping the French much previously. I should have guessed that the Egyptians were the real contenders and forced them into a war-time economy.

Once I get Democracy, I feel that playing for builder for the rest of the game is a good idea: I control most of the world's land mass, and have access to numerous luxuries (and hopefully all strategic resources). I disband/sell almost all my military units/buildings and focus on research. This is 1695AD, and I'm 2 techs behind the Egyptians and the French who have just discovered Steam Engine.

The next 200 years are uneventful but excruciatingly long. With the help of the Theory of Evolution I pull into a 3-tech lead, which I keep until the end of the game, more or less. I'm in complete control of the game, but I foresee that a Spaceship win will take at least another hour of play. I try my chances with the United Nations, even though everyone hates me, even after I tech-gift them into the Modern age. The votes are cast: 2 for Egypt, 1 for Persia; inconclusive. I've had enough and choose an early retirement. 3000 or so points.

I've included my game just before I build the UN. If anyone feels like letting me know how to post pics (more specifically, what software you use), I'd appreciate it.


Things I learned specific to the AU-106 scenario:

1. It is possible for the secluded human player to keep up with the AI in tech on Emperor level. How well one keeps up is (I assume) highly dependent on how secluded the other civs are. I imagine had all the other civs been on the same continent, this game would have been a lot tougher.

2. The AI doesn't "realise" it's secluded. When I first contacted the Germans, they had Militiary units aplenty but no one to send them at. Given that the human player can figure out they're not going to meet anyone for a long time and act accordingly is a huge advantage.

3. A start position that is secluded on a smallish island is actually quite fun, and certainly not impossible. The key to sucess is to cram as many cities onto your main continent as possible, something which I did not do (I'm getting better, but I still don't like too much overlap with my cities). This is obvious from my early-game performance: although my pre-contact strategy mirrored Killerdaffy's almost exactly (beeline for The Republic, beeline for Navigation), I only managed to make first contact in 1260AD, a good 300 years after Killerdaffy. I attribute this entirely to the number of cities on my mainland, which was only around 9-10. With a few more, I'm sure my science would have been a lot more better.


Other things not necessarily related to the scenario:

1. Building the Palace away from "home" is often a better idea than building the FP. Thanks for those who pointed this out to me: it's a great strat!

2. Coliseums are great for pre-building if you've got Cathedrals and the Sistine Chapel in place; they cost quite a bit, and so you can use them to pre-build almost anything, from Universities to Factories.

3. Keeping the AI civs away from each other for as long as possible is really useful. Since (as I've been corrected) a tech only devaluates according to how many civs you've contacted know it, keeping civs away from each other allows tech-trading at high cost. There's a lot more strategic pluses to keeping civs apart, which I'm sure have been discussed before so I won't post them here.

4. Immortals are good right up until the Industrial era, making their name quite appropriate! I always knew the Immortals were good, but never knew just how long-lived their usefulness is.


Well, overall this was good learning experience. I can't wait to try the "always war" scenario next.


Dominae

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Theseus
Olaf, I didn't mean to knock your skills ( ), I was just trying to develop a theory of why everyone hated you.

I did not take it as an offence. Surely they hated me in the late game for recently being in war with them, but why did they declare war in the first place? They said they were polite but then backstabbed me on the same turn.

By the way, I decided the game was lost and restarted as Persians on emperor. Doing pretty well so far. Republic established in 350 BC (my quickest ever). I also seem to expand faster than the AI. Here is a screenshot from 975 BC. But you never know... My Roman monarch game looked excellent until I was backstabbed and had to change plans for the rest of the game.

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Dominae
3. A start position that is secluded on a smallish island is actually quite fun, and certainly not impossible. The key to sucess is to cram as many cities onto your main continent as possible, something which I did not do (I'm getting better, but I still don't like too much overlap with my cities). This is obvious from my early-game performance: although my pre-contact strategy mirrored Killerdaffy's almost exactly (beeline for The Republic, beeline for Navigation), I only managed to make first contact in 1260AD, a good 300 years after Killerdaffy. I attribute this entirely to the number of cities on my mainland, which was only around 9-10. With a few more, I'm sure my science would have been a lot more better.

As you can see here (1020AD) I didn't have many more cities (12, one of them size 3). The Pyramids got all of them to size 12 very quickly, though, and the GA provided the infrastructure to go with it. I worked nearly every tile of that island since BC:

Olaf,

350BC for Republic is very good. Did you beeline for Republic or get Literature (cheap libraries) first?