AU: A MOD for the curiculum

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by aaglo
Does this mod in question work with PTW?

Not really yet, even though you can load .bic files in PtW as well. I did implement all the changes into a .bix file but it is very likely that most of the Medieval balancing changes need to be revised, so there isn't an official version yet.

All changes are documented in the readme. Since I didn't have the time to test it in full, please use it at your own risk.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Theseus
Sounds like we're getting very close. Let's try to reach some finality on the naval units.

Re Military Academy, I sorta like the idea of not requiring a victorius Army, as this lets late warmongers, of which there are many, still commence, say, a Tank period intercontinental invasion, with an Army of Infantry as part of the invasion force. It must be frustrating not to be able to do so currently.

Heroic Epic still requires an Army victory though, correct? That decides the early GL question for me.

Still working my way through all 9 billions pages of this, so if this has been decided since this post, ignore me.


Is there a way to flag the building of a unit based on whether any Civ has met the requirement?
Example: In order to build nukes, any of the Civs must have completed Manhattan, right?
Reverse: I don't have to complete Manhattan to build nukes, as long as someone builds Manhattan.

Well, if I remember my history correctly, some Prussian rich guy came up with most of the ideas that led to what we commonly think of when we think of "Army" - drilling, formation marching, etc.
And then a lot of the rest of the world copied it.

So, as long as any civ has built a successful army, I think all other civs should be able to build the academy.
Yes, tech requirements should probably remain, but this would retain the flavor while allowing non-militaristic and pro-builder players/civs to still build armies.

Assuming it's possible to use a similar flag to the Manhattan Project/Nukes requirement flag.

Again, I'm still working through this thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned, I just wanted to suggest it before I lost the train of thought.

[Theseus]

Good one, ducki!

Someone with mod experience tell me if I'm wrong, but building an Army couldn't be the solution (a unit, not a building). But what about moving the Military Academy waaaay forward, triggered by the construction of a Heroic Epic??!!

The problem with the current solutions is that it precludes Armies for the non-warmongers, or just the GL-deprived, until pretty late.

[vmxa1]

Well you could say that having each make their own MA is the functional equivalent of the time passing to learn about the army and copy it.

[DaveMcW]

Before factories (and iron works), armies are prohibitively expensive to build. Imagine spending 400 extra shields to form a 4-knight army!

I think Military Tradition is the perfect time for the Academy.

[ducki]

When is MT? Late Middle Ages?
If so, that's probably a pretty "historical" timing, but since you can't really go by history with Civ, I thought using the Anyone Builds X pre-req - similar to how real history worked - would be the next best thing.

If mimicking Manhattan isn't feasible, though, then it's pretty moot.

Just a thought, but I don't know anything about the mods, other than that I like Snoopy's graphics mod.

[vmxa1]

I would not think people are building armies in the MA cities until they get to MI or Tanks. You just get by with leaders to make them until that time frame. In my last game I had Iron Works in a city that was my second or third one so it was very strong and I buid 2 armies early to allow getting a fourth unit in them. It did not take long as the city was very strong and had nothing better to do. It is rare though.

[ducki]

Only partially on topic, I don't wage near as much war as many people, so when I get a leader, it is very rare.

If I get one in a game, I feel lucky.
I've gotten two before, but they were both rather late - Industrial Age, IIRC.

I do think it a tad unfair that you must wage war to get leaders. Not only that, but you must micromanage your units as well, to maximize your chances, adding yet another layer between those that prefer to play peacefully and the chances to a) get armies and b) beat the AI to a given wonder at higher difficulty levels.

I'll have to give this mod a try once it's PtW-friendly, as it looks like a lot of great changes. I'd like to see non-warring players have an opportunity to build armies, even if there was a way to make them less effective than "real" armies, as even the Swiss have an army.

Actually, Switzerland is an army, yet they tend not to take over a lot of territory.

Not sure if there is a solution that would fit the philosophy of "change as little as possible" while still allowing the more builderly players to have even some of the advantages of an Army.

[vmxa1]

I do not play around with my elites to get them leaders. I mean I do not alway hold them back to get after near dead units (ok, I will at times). I often will let them lead the fight and take my loses. If I am a mil civ, I will have units from barracks and get lots of elites and can afford to lose some. I normally do not just start wars as I use to and will wait on the AI to start it. IOW not a full out warmongger.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae
Replacing the Keshik's "mountains" ability for a "hills" ability sounds awfully logical; I'm surprised the design team didn't think of that one.

The AI values Workers at around 100-120 gold now, which appears to be balanced: priced so high, you'll rarely buy them early in the game, but it is still an viable option later on.


Dominae

I agree that logically the mountains only advantage seems odd, but I think this is probably an attempt at cultural/historical semi-accuracy.

IIRC, the Mongols ride/rode ponys that were uncannily surefooted, better than a mountain goat, even.

Granting that sort of specialized talent a very limited special ability does make sense.

These little ponies could easily outpace even the fastest of Arabian steeds only in mountains. In any other terrain, a full-sized horse will easily outpace or keep pace with these little guys.


Yes, it seems odd to have a unit that can go extra fast only in the toughest terrain, but it is semi-culturally/historically accurate.




(edit) I finally finished all 22-23 pages of this, so I apologise for the seeming disjointedness of my few posts. Feel free to ignore any or all of them. I'll definitely be trying out the AU mod when it's PtW-ready, though. Thank you all for the work that's gone into it!

[Theseus]

ducki, love the enthusiasm...

[player1]

By the way, any chance of implemeting some changes done in newest version of Patch Suggestion MOD?

[alexman]

Yes, player1, there is a good chance of that, as always!

OK, I think it's about time to create the new PTW version of the AU mod. Now is the time to provide input on the following decisions:

1. AI build preferences. I propose the table below. Comments?
   

   Civilization  Off Def Arty Setl Work Nav Air Grth Prod Hap Sci Wlth Trad Expl Cult
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Rome (4)       X   X                          -    X                 +
   Egypt (3)                                     -    X    +            +         -
   Greece (3)                            X            +        X        X         -
   Babylon (4-3)                                      +        -        +         X
   Germany (5)    X                                   +        X        +         -
   Russia (4)                                X   -    +        X        +
   China (2)                                     -    X        -        +
   America (3)                               X   -    X                 +         -
   Japan (4)      X                      X            +    X            +
   France (1)                                         +    -            X         -
   India (1)                                     -    +    +       X    X         -
   Persia (4)     X                                   +        +   -    X
   Aztecs (4)     X                                   +    X            +
   Zulu (5)       X                                   +                 +
   Iroquois (2-3) +                              -    +    X            +    -
   England (3)                           X            +            X    X         -
   Mongols (5)    X                                   X                 +
   Spain (3)                             X            +    +       Q    X    -
   Scandinav (4)  X                      X            +                 +
   Ottomans (3)          X                            +    -   +        +
   Celts (4)      X                                   +    +            X         -
   Arabia (4)                                    -    +    +            +         -
   Carthage (2)                          X            +                 X
   Korea (2)             +                            +        +   -    X
   
   Off: Offensive Units
   Def: Defensive Units
   Arty: Ground Artillery
   Setl: Settlers
   Work: Workers
   Nav: Naval Units
   Air: Air Units
   Grth: Growth Improvements
   Prod: Production Improvements
   Hap: Happiness Improvements
   Sci: Science Improvements
   Wlth: Wealth
   Trad: Trade Improvements
   Expl: Exploration Units
   Cult: Culture Improvements
   
   X = build often
   - = removed
   + = added
   Q = removed build never

2. AI technology research. Which technologies should we make the AI emphasize more? Should we change some technology costs to do that? Should we move Wonders around to make technology branches more lucrative to the AI (e.g. move Hanging Gardens to Polytheism)?
   
3. Upgrade paths. Any suggestions? I like our naval unit upgrade changes, but what about the new upgrade paths with the new PTW units?
   
4. AI boosters. Should we modify the rules to help the AI's inherent strategy and penalize the human's strategy? Examples: double value of specialists, increase maintenance of buildings.
   
5. Communism. Should we make it a viable government for the human player, or just attempt to boost it enough to help the AI, but not enough to make the human change his strategy?
   
6. Any other issues with PTW? Any other issues with the previous version of the mod? Any comments on player 1's new changes?
   
7. Are we going to include more accurate names for the new civs? If so, I don't know where to find them.
   

[ducki]

re: 4 - increased maintenance.
Since the AI already has problems with FP placement, isn't this going to penalize them, with their naturally worse corruption and therefore less income, than it will the human player?

re: 5 - viable communism.
I think it should be boosted enough that the human considers changing his strategy. If it's not good enough that it might be an alternative to Republic/Democracy in certain situations, is it really going to be good enough to truly help the AI?

I'm not saying it should be so good that it becomes the new Republic, but it should definitely be good enough that, in certain, specific situations, a non-Religious player would at least consider it. As it stands now, if you are non-Religious, it's not even an option. That entire branch exists solely for Drafting and Police Stations, and I don't even bother researching it, because the AI always does it for me and will always trade it for the stuff I research.

[alexman]

Originally posted by ducki
Since the AI already has problems with FP placement, isn't this going to penalize them, with their naturally worse corruption and therefore less income, than it will the human player?

I never thought about it that way, that's a good point.

OTOH, buildings are almost always worth their maintenance cost, even in moderately corrupt cities. So a marketplace will rarely not pay for itself, for example.

But your point it well taken. If we are going to increase building maintenance, we need to make sure the AI will not be hurt by building them.

By the way, please vote in the poll for the AU mod philosophy, if you haven't done so already.