Training Succession Game 201

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Modo44

I guess it depends on attitude. You know, different people consider different things "fun".

Fun is fun, but this course is presuming that one is wishiing to aspire to higher levels of strategy. It's all well and good to play your game around the idea that you will have a Wonder factory at some point, but recognize that this is likely not optimal play. It's one thing to let someone know that they could do it one way for fun, but it's another to say they "should" be doing something sub-optimal.

Yes, I know this game is about learning. Sorry, my bad.

There's no need for sarcasm and I don't understand what you're implying, anyway. AFAICT, I was promoting learning and a greater knowledge base.

Sure, you can use the production, but not checking if there's BG under those Forests? Pop is power, I always thought? It is definately faster to Chop, then Road, than the other wa around, and I will usually (99% cases) want to get to that food, more than I want to get to those shields. Plus, you still get the production that gets lost before the Mine is up - that's the 10 shields that come with the Chop. Or am I missing a point here?

Like I say, it's highly situational. If Ellipi, for example, had a nice forest to work it would produce an extra spt because it grows every two turns, and at every growth it would gain two free shields. Nothing to sneeze at, and there's no lost growth whatsoever.
Beyond that, there are cities that will have uneven growth and cities that will be stuck at size 6, etc. It needs to be on a case by case basis. I mean, food is important, but you don't irrigate every square, do you? But yes, if you are going to chop, you generally want to chop first and road later.

Quick comments on the 250 AD save.[list][*]You have way too few Workers. Many cities are working unimproved tiles, and that loses you a lot of cash, and shields. Get some more. Personally I'd double them up, to have 20.

Greatly concurred. You have 20 cities and 10 Workers. As Modo says, you want at least 20, preferable 30-40.

[*]Ellipi is supposed to be a Worker/Settler pump. It should have enough food, and shields, to produce a worker every 2 turns, or a Settler every 4 turns. It should be cruising between size 4, and 5 - building the Settler/Worker on the turn it would grow to size 6. Mine some of that Grassland around the city (and perhaps take the Mined BG from Nineveh), and manage the citizens accordingly (best would be a constant +5 food surpulus). Start with Workers, because they can be made with less improved tiles around the city. Then do Settlers and Workers as needed. Later do Workers, to add them to slow-growing cities.

Again, agreed. Modo covers the specifics well. I would like to mention on overall trend I'm noticing is the great Builders Syndrome; you seem to want to build everything everywhere. Ellipi has no real use for either a Temple, Library or Barracks. It does not produce enough Commerce ATM to even make the Library anything more than a culture generator. City specialization is very important as you move up, especially in the early game. Weigh the advantages of each improvement before you build it. IF you're think of building a Barracks anywhere other than on a hostile border, ask yourself, "Am I planning to build a lot of units here after this build?" IF the answer is "No", then don't build it. Not only does it waste 40 shields, but it will cost 1gpt every turn thereafter. By the same token, don't build units in cities that don't have Barracks. It appears that most of your standing army is either Regular or was recently. Those that became Vets could be Elites by now had they been trained with Barracks.

[wertyu70]

Hi all,
unfortunately still I can't play due to Real Life commitments...
About Barbarians, I have to say that I configured my Conquests.ini file long ago with NoAIPatrol=0 when I heard I would fix barbarian bug, so my settings are different from other players.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
There's no need for sarcasm and I don't understand what you're implying, anyway. AFAICT, I was promoting learning and a greater knowledge base.

Sorry, it's one of those days. I shouldn't be posting stuff like that, I know.

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Like I say, it's highly situational. If Ellipi, for example, had a nice forest to work it would produce an extra spt because it grows every two turns, and at every growth it would gain two free shields. Nothing to sneeze at, and there's no lost growth whatsoever.
Beyond that, there are cities that will have uneven growth and cities that will be stuck at size 6, etc. It needs to be on a case by case basis. I mean, food is important, but you don't irrigate every square, do you? But yes, if you are going to chop, you generally want to chop first and road later.

In the situation here, with Hills and Mountains, I definately want all those Grasslands to produce 2 food, or more. That includes Grassland tiles covered by Forests. Early on, in Despotism, you need the 2 food to grow at any decent rate. Later the cities that might need some Forests (for lack of Hills/Mountains) for production, can be helped by Mining some Plains. And all those Chops can speed up some infrastructure. I still don't see a reason to leave Forests around.

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Greatly concurred. You have 20 cities and 10 Workers. As Modo says, you want at least 20, preferable 30-40.

20 cities? Wow, I should have counted them - thought it was less. That does bring us closer to 30 Workers.

[dmd175]

Anemic English counterattack

260 AD: Horseback riding complete. Will switch to poly at 5 turns.

Sword 1 at Nott kills spear. Sword 2 kills spear and -2hp; spear to protect. Warrior moves to tobacco tile. IX Corp fortify to heal. Warrior1100 from Nippur to occupy horse tile.

270 AD: Hlobane Zulu completes SOZ. Galleys from Eridu and Samarra; Eridu galley sights land due E, will get there next turn.

Harrappan camp dispered far N of Babylon. Sword takes out another spear at Nott. Army takes out archer.

280 AD: Sword defending barbs promoted, kills 4 or 5 horses, and dies. London and Eulbar galleys. Settler teams from England NW and NE of Zariqum. Sword #1 kills Nott spear, -1hp. Sword #2 kills Nott spear, -2hp. IX Corps on oxford hill.

290 AD: Eulbar galley boxed by barb galley. Sword #1 kills Nott spear, -3 hp. Sheessh, how many spears are there? English will now talk: math and poly for peace = "close". Sword #2 kills Nott spear, -2hp, promote to elite. Unfortified spear remains, so I could use the two warriors...umm, I'll wait for next time with sword or two.

Spices hooked up = 4 lux.

Iroquois met: see attached f8 screen. Our military is weak vs. We are behind in score, power, and culture, but cutting into their lead rapidly. See score chart; power and culture similar. The Iroquois city list includes: Ur, Sumer, Bad-tibira, Kish, Umma. These are Sumerian cities, so Iroquois may be the proto KAI. Let's be nice, for now. We have a lot of extra lux to trade, so we can exploit that. OTOH, they have no communication or map for us yet - so at least no navigation for them.

Embassy established with them. Salamanca is pop 12 and shrinking, citizens are 4/2/2/4 hap/cont/un/entertain. f/s/g 13/23/36. Building sun tzu, 21 turns left. 4 pikes defending. Treasury =37 gold. Fully improved. Resources = 1 iron, which means no horses = no MW = no GA (pyramids etc might have triggered though). So they are mopping up w/o UU? They also have 1 dye and 1 ivory. Embassy converted them from cautious to polite.

[dmd175]

300 AD: First sword punches through Nott. 4 resisters, no improvements. Two settler teams near Zariqum again. London galley finds light blue borders = Sumeria but cannot get there yet. Samarra galley following Iroquois galley back home. Forces diverted from Nottingham toward Zariqum. Will attack settler teams once they reach my roads.

310 AD: Aztecs building Sistine. We need some techs. Got poly this turn, and I can research math in four turns. Plan is then to make peace with English after that to hopefully get construction and currency, and then our free tech.

Aztec galley met and green border found by Samarra galley. Embassy: Feudalism, 1 gold. Tenochtitlan: pop 2, 2 happy/7content. 35 turns to sistine. f/s/g = 22/14/18. 7 pikes. Fully upgraded with cathedral. Iron; dye, silk, incense, ivory.

Settlers will come from Nineveh and Babylon to settle the NE territory soon.

320 AD: Army defends archer. Settler from Ellipi. Will MM better for settler/worker pumpage. One English settler killed.Shaka contacted, polite. Embassy: Republic, Zimbabwe 3/3/3 citizens. 22 turns to Sun Tzu. Defended 2 impi. Only temple and Hanging gardens for improvements. Iron; dyes, ivory, silk.

Forces will go toward York and Warwick, since we cannot hope to get those in trade.

330 AD: Iroquois to build Sistine. We meet the Sumerians, who have only 2 cities and are at war with Iroquois. They will give math for 19 gold, so I buy it, even though we will get it in two turns (we are making 12 gpt so it seems like a fair price). I make peace with England for Construction, Oxford, and Newcastle. I trade philosophy for currency to English, and we advance finally to MA. Feudalism is the free tech. My general strategy is a rush to education/music theory, so I pick monotheism. We can research 13 turns +16 gold or 9 turns -2gold. I would pick 9 turns assuming our economy will grow and pull us out of the hole. What do you guys think - never negative $ flow?

Everybody except England has monotheism; I demand it from sumeria, no luck. Everybody except Sumeria and england has engineering. No one will trade for either of these techs. FYI our shield output sucks. London is high at 9spt = 67 turns to Sun Tzu = we're not getting that. I'm starting wonder pre builds in London, which can always be put toward col, cath, or HE if necessary. Needless to say, I'm trying to kick out lots of workers and settlers.

340 AD: Sumeria is under attack. Trying to make a per turn deal with them b/c they might die but we could get monot.

Half of our empire:

[dmd175]

other half

[dmd175]

Originally posted
20 cities? Wow, I should have counted them - thought it was less. That does bring us closer to 30 Workers.

Thanks for pointing this out. Yes, workers have lagged behind. I kicked out a few more so we now have 17. We also have 10 slaves. And 5 more workers produced in the next few turns. I'm not used to playing a war strategy, so I was building many more units than usual, and workers suffered.

I would like to mention on overall trend I'm noticing is the great Builders Syndrome; you seem to want to build everything everywhere. Ellipi has no real use for either a Temple, Library or Barracks.

City specialization is very important ...

Weigh the advantages of each improvement ...

It appears that most of your standing army is either Regular or was recently. Those that became Vets could be Elites by now had they been trained with Barracks.

Correct diagnosis, Dr. I do have great builders. I rushed temples in border cities, and temples and libraries in cities surroudning Nottingham, but may not have been necessary.

Will try to work on specialization and planning improvements.

I am aware that lots of new swords and spear are regulars because about in 170-190 AD when I started noticing the english acting funny I rushed units in cities near Nottingham that did not yet have barracks. I didn 't think I had time to squeeze in barracks. Future units will all be veterans.

fact that we share our continent with only the English means that there's four Emp. AI on the other continent, most likely. This means we'll be behind in tech until we find them and until we have the chance to completely settle our landmass and become a Republic, etc.

Yes, we are at least behind by monotheism, theology, and eng'g. But that may be the extent of the damage, as no one appears to have chivalry or invention, as I'm sure I would have received messages about Templar or Leonardo.

the appearance of a KAI is less likely. It is fortunate as well that they have reached the Middle AGes, as this means neither the Aztecs nor the Iroquois likely had the opportunity to really dominate with their UUs. They all have AA UU as well and hopefully managed to trigger thei GA already. Nonetheless, I would be inclined to watch out for the Iroquois in particular.

Iroquois is strong. They are the only civ relative to whom we have a weak army. Zulu/aztec avg, sumeria & eng strong. Iroq is #1 in land mass too, just beating us out, and #1 in power and score.

Make sure you claim the Spices north, where that Iroquis city sits. You can never have enough luxuries.

Working on it. Definitely want to prevent them from getting their 5th lux.

I guess Nottingham will not flip by culture, eh?

A valiant effort I thought, but no.

Again, agreed. Modo covers the specifics well.

Yes. Thank you both Modo and PB for critiquing and helping me out with my strategy.

All in all, we are doing ok with the attached stats. My prime goal is workers workers now and rev up the infrastructure, both tiles and improvements.

[dmd175]

and the save

I'll probably let this game cool for a while to catch up.

[dmd175]

360 AD: Iroquois attacking Sumeria with MI. Akkad builds settler. Every civ contacted, no one will give monotheism (demanded from Sumer again).
370 AD: Khorsabad founded.
380 AD: Hindana founded. Made RPP with iroquois b/c they were annoyed with us and our galley.
390 AD: Sumeria lost a city; one left. Iroquois still attacking them. Still won't trade monotheism. Tell Wilaya, Karana, Adab, Telloh founded.
400 AD: Moving settlers, workers.
410 AD: Aztecs building Leonardo. Nina founded. Still no trade for techs.
420 AD: Iroquois and Sumeria make peace. Ebla founded.
430 AD: Iroquois building Leonardo.
440 AD: Iroquois complete Sun Tzu. Wonder chain involving Leonardo, Sistine in progress. Barb boat killed.
450 AD: ROP with Zulu. Normally I don't like ROP ever, at all. But since no one is near us, I want people to remain polite for now. Babylon builds marketplace. New Babylon and New Nineveh founded, barb camp cleared, barb boat killed.

EDIT: this is the power chart, in case anyone was unclear

[dmd175]

save

[Modo44]

Comments on the 450 AD save.

• Apart from a slight technological lag, you're doing good. In general, I mean.
  
• Still too few Workers. Yes, you have 23 now, but at the same time, you have many more cities. Make more Workers. When a city is idle, make it churn out a Worker. If you can, time it well, so that he's ready when the city grows.
  
• You are building Warriors, while in the Medieval Age. Unless you plan a massive upgrade to MedInfs (which is not needed to kill the English, btw), you shouldn't be doing that. Instead, build Spearmen (they upgrade all the way, sou you seldom waste shields on this unit), or Horsemen (you might want to do an invasion with Cavalry later on, and a fast unit is a good quick-response defender). Catapults are useful as well, if you can march them together with defenders (anticipating Feudalism soon, this wouldn't be such a bad idea).
  
• You are building units in small cities, and in cities without Barracks. Yes, you might need that in cities that are far from your core, but usually, camps are better. Best would be, if you could get 2 or 3 cities producing 10 unwasted shields, with Barracks. To do this, you need to Mine those Hills and Mountains, or find a big city on flat land. Once this is done, most other cities won't have to worry about building units ever again.
  
  A mixed approach with cities producing units inbetween buildings is not likely to work here, because of lacking tile improvements, and the resulting slow infrastructure development...
  
• Many cities are very corrupt. You need to build Courthouses, or those cities will never be any good. Sometimes a Courthouse should be the first build in a city, especially if it doesn't need culture to prevent a flip. Personally, I tend to rush this building.
  
• Big cities need Marketplaces. This will greatly increase the value of your luxuries, and will allow you to skip some happiness buildings. Current example of that is London.
  
• To further boost efficiency, try using Slaves for Chops and Roads, rather than native Workers. This will lose you less valuable turns.
  
• When I was talking about Ellipi as a Worker-pump, I was talking about leaving it at that forever. Or at least until after Railroads are done. You might not like how it looks doing nothing but Workers, but you sure need it. And if not Ellipi, design at least one other city to do this (Nottingham, and Nineveh are possible candidates). Having enough Workers is very, very powerful.

[Golden Bear]

Definitely Ellipi as a worker pump. And just leave it going. A worker every 2 turns will get the economy working. It looks to me like the pieces are there but the cities are struggling because of lack of infrastructure. It takes discipline to get the worker force up when there are so many other good things to build, but they are the enabler for everything.

Worker usage is also a key advantage for humans vs. AI. They are no where near as efficient with this flexible unit. Remember that they are also instant population redistibution also if you have the urge to boom a city in a particularly productive location.

Otherwise, good job spreading out and building your city base!

[wertyu70]

Wow, lots of things happened while I couldn't play.
I will play ten turns as soon as I arrive home today.

[dmd175]

Originally posted by Modo44
Apart from a slight technological lag, you're doing good. In general, I mean.

We're trying. Thanks for the comments. We have to get rid of English and start taking on Aztec/Iroquois head on. But you're right, by the numbers, we're not that far behind (surprisingly).

[*]Still too few Workers. Yes, you have 23 now, but at the same time, you have many more cities.

Will continue to work on this. I guess you guys don't count slave laborers, even at half discounted rate in terms of your planning.

[*]You are building Warriors, ...Instead, build Spearmen...or Horsemen...Catapults

All the build orders for each city need to be revamped with a fresh eye. AFAIK the only cities with warrior build are cities not yet connected that are just using that as a temporary placeholder.

camps are better. Best would be, if you could get 2 or 3 cities producing 10 unwasted shields, with Barracks.

Still working on city specialization. just have to figure out which cities will be unit camps. Unfortunately, our production output remains quite low, and we do not have even 2-3 cities with 10 spt.

Many cities are very corrupt. You need to build Courthouses...Big cities need Marketplaces.

Like you say, I agree these should be rushed. However, we are not gaining lots of gpt in an attempt to stay in tech race. Marketplaces were helping with this in terms of cash flow. I still have not mastered how you guys run very positive cash flows on high levels yet. So far we run about -1 to +15 gpt varying with turn (I guess population shifts, unit productions, improvement costs, etc).

[*]To further boost efficiency, try using Slaves for Chops and Roads, rather than native Workers. This will lose you less valuable turns.

Excellent idea.

When I was talking about Ellipi as a Worker-pump, I was talking about leaving it at that forever. Or at least until after Railroads are done. You might not like how it looks doing nothing but Workers, but you sure need it.

Agreed. Ellipi is pretty good for now and w/o aqueduct is a good worker pump for at least this tech era.

Thanks Modo for the comments.

[dmd175]

Originally posted by wertyu70
Wow, lots of things happened while I couldn't play.
I will play ten turns as soon as I arrive home today.

Emperor Wertyu70, we look forward to your reign today. Hopefully you will find the direction Babylon has taken to your liking, and provide further leadership to our empire's new cities.