Training Succession Game 201

[wertyu70]

dmd175
Besides, for the next 3 days I will not be able to play,
due to real life "social events".
So if nobody is going to replace me, fell free to go on in the game.

[dmd175]

wertyu

Hi. Thanks for some of the insight on your turns. However, I'm still curious how we came to be at war with the English (?). Anyway, it was fun to mobilize and attack them and it turned out well. I might or might not play in the next 3 days with the upcoming exams, but hope you will keep playing. Later

[wertyu70]

I have no idea why the English attacked us.
I did nothing to annoy them.
When I start playing, one of our warrior was in their land
(IX Corp if I remember well) but I moved him out as soon as possible.
Suddenly they moved the two warriors in our border near Ashur.
And yesterday I tried also to reload many times the game I posted, trying to renegotiate peace with them before their attack, but they didn't accept anything...
Maybe they wanted our iron.

I will play again as soon as I can. I will try to manage to play during lunch time because I have no more time at home (XMAS social events managed by my wife can be more time consuming than an exam...).

But I will play again, because I think I have a lot to learn, expecially after we enter middle ages.


PS: Sorry if sometime I can't explain things in a clear way , but I don't master English language well enough.

[wertyu70]

I forgot to tell you that I'm surprised how well you could manage the English War.
With only a few warrior you did a masterpiece!

In my games I have never fight a war before Swordmen, sometimes I performed archer rushes,
but I never used warrior to attack an enemy.
I usually use them only for police duty, exploring or against barbs.

[dmd175]

Originally posted by wertyu70
With only a few warrior...

Thanks for the compliment. I have to say though that
one, we were lucky;

two, I lost quite a few warriors (not so few warriors to the proud Babylonian families who made the ultimate sacrifice [while we are at it, thanks to other men and women who have truly given their life for their country {no flame war, please}];

three, we won in part by numerical superiority (ie Canterbury was an elite, veteran, and conscript warrior vs. only a spear as near as I could figure as they moved the warrior out and I killed it)

four, the war for netting only one city was very drawn out, almost 20 turns!

five, I used tactical advantages like staying on mountains but attacking their troops in grassland/plain

six, we were lucky to get the army, which gave us net +4hp to the warrior; the army was instrumental in the battle of london in taking out 1 spear and something else. OTOH, I had four other units there I think, and the outcome may have only been delayed by one turn.

Overall, the English were not well prepared for defense. They had 1 spear in cities, 2 in London. They sent out lone archers and lone warriors, to grasslands, to be stomped. Thank God for AI stupidity.

(XMAS social events managed by my wife can be more time consuming than an exam...).

I've got a fiancee, and I hear you on this one! She really dislikes my civ playing , so I'll need some advice from more senior people on making her let me have my fun time.

[punkbass2000]

Hey. Sorry for my inactivity. With travelling time, I've been at work from 11am-10pm minimum since Monday, and will be doing likewise today. It is currently 10:15, so I will try to weigh in on a few things. I have been following the thread, so I will try to respond with blinders on.

On the next city after Ashur issue, I agree with Dom. Settling the cow is probably more important than blocking the English, especially since this can be done with a few warriors easily enough anyway. The English already have a fair amount of land to work with and haven't even settled the Gems NE of London yet. I do take issue with one argument Dom made, however.

Originally posted by Dominae
Canterbury is only where it is because of the Iron; the AI places a very high value on Strategic resources when selecting its city location priorities. The area to the South of Canterbury will probably not be settled by the English for quite some time because there is "nothing there", so to speak. So I maintain that the next city to be founded should be near the Cattle.

There may very well be resources there that we can't see. I do agree with Modo that is certainly not a clear cut advantage one way or the other, but I do think the cattle city is a generally superior strategy. We can probably push back any territory the English may happen to gain easily enough as we're both Rel. and Sci. and they're neither. In fact, if people think Swords would be too easy we could probably culture rush them.

I have one criticism of the placement of Uruk; I would have gone one tile SE to take advatnae of the Wines. Also Eridu should probably be one tile N. this may seem close, I certainly don't ICS for no reason, but, when the terrain dictates, putting a city two tiles away is no crime.

Originally posted by dmd175 English: waiting one turn helped with diplomacy/bargaining. Now, still can't get city but Hastings is "getting close" whereas all were doubtful before. Can get mysticism now, or alpha and 177 gold, or wheel and 138 gold, but cannot get two techs yet. Would you guys comment on your views on how the relative bargaining position is affected? Nothing really happened since last turn except moved more warriors toward England and built one more warrior.

I don't know exactly how it works, but capturing and razing cities has a major effect on they're willingness to pay for peace, and each unit lost also has a fair effect. Generally, if you can take cities you should in order to get them to negotiate, as its much faster, but as you play higher and higher levels, you may need to setup killzones, etc., in order to prune down large AI armies and to bring them to the diplomacy table. In your situation I would keep at war with them for now. They have advantages at Emperor, but between the damage you've done already, the MGL and the fact that we'll have Iron soon, I'd certainly wait to try and get every tech they have available as my primary goal. We're not going to suffer WW regardless and will likely see War Happiness for sometime. I can see no particular reason for peace. I would have put the Elite that generated the MGL in the army, BTW.

I would begin researching for real at this point, as you did. We have many cities and will reach Libraries and Republic reasonably soon. I think London is fine choice for the FP, though I probably would have been inclined to go with Samaria. The terrain around there is really nice, and the culture coming from the FP there might have caused Mottingham to flip at some point, given our palace is only a bit further than theirs. I might have founded Samaria 87 of Nottingham for this express purpose, as well as the fact that the insta-FP would have netted us immediate Horses.

[dmd175]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
On the next city after Ashur issue, I agree with Dom. Settling the cow is probably more important than blocking the English...and haven't even settled the Gems NE of London yet.

Ok, I understand this reasoning. Looks like in wertyu in fact settled the cow first after this discussion, and sent the second settler to block. Also, the English certainly had a settler on the way to those gems, as the city of Hastings was founded sometime in the next 4 turns.

I have one criticism of the placement of Uruk; I would have gone one tile SE to take advatnae of the Wines. Also Eridu should probably be one tile N.

I totally see what you are saying, and I agree with that placement we could have worked the wines earlier after that city's culture expand. The plan then will be to settle maybe 666 of Babylon (or 6668)

Not sure why Eridu would have been moved up, other than to have more land available. This way, we are working the fish right now.

War Happiness.

Awesome. Citizens should certainly appreciate the battles we won.

think London is fine choice for the FP, though I probably would have been inclined to go with Samaria. ...immediate horses.

Good point about the horses. Though we are at peace for a few turns and I have a worker team on it to the other horse.

I did consider Samaria as the other site for the FP. In retrospect I really like the idea of working 3 furs relatively corruption free. However, the terrain around London is no slouch - one sugar, but good mix of flood plains and grass, at least 3 of which are BG. I confess I relish the thought of planting my official government seat on the conquered enemy's foreign capital too.

Mottingham to flip at some point...

I think we can work on this. English are broke(n) for right now and are acting dumb - ie were building Colossus in Hastings at like 1 spt. Thus, they will not be kicking out settlers soon (I think) and we can settle around Nottingham (N,NW, W, SW, S) good cities with BG that will put LOTS of cultural pressure on Nottingham. I think we can flip it - assuming war does not come first.

EDIT: to make post look pretty

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by dmd175
Not sure why Eridu would have been moved up, other than to have more land available. This way, we are working the fish right now.

As we learned in TSG 101, I am a huge fan of river placement. Ilike to get as much mileage out of a river as possible. Because Ellipi needed to be placed on a hill to get irrigation to the cow, we already have a city that could be potentially be a permanent pump. You do have a good point about the fish, however. The fact that it also consumes a Tundra means this is a close call at least, so don't take the criticism to heart. As it stands, I would almost be inclined to put a city two tiles SE of Babylon, though this would eat at the few hills in the core. Perhaps three tiles E would be better. Anyway, as I say, it's debateable. I hope Dom and Modo show up soon
Oh, and I may have missed the explanation, but looking at the save again I have to wonder why Worker2 is roading the hill towards Eridu as opposed to the grassland.

I did consider Samaria as the other site for the FP. In retrospect I really like the idea of working 3 furs relatively corruption free. However, the terrain around London is no slouch - one sugar, but good mix of flood plains and grass, at least 3 of which are BG. I confess I relish the thought of planting my official government seat on the conquered enemy's foreign capital too.

A fair enough sentiment You should correspond with Arrian, he too enjoys a fair bit of realism/roleplaying in his games AFAICT, and is quite a good player.

I think we can work on this. English are broke(n) for right now and are acting dumb - ie were building Colossus in Hastings at like 1 spt. Thus, they will not be kicking out settlers soon (I think) and we can settle around Nottingham (N,NW, W, SW, S) good cities with BG that will put LOTS of cultural pressure on Nottingham. I think we can flip it - assuming war does not come first.

Yes, at this point I'm sure we can flip Nottingham and cut off English from the rest of our continent I think we should keep them around as a vassal or client-state. Even if not necessary, I think it will serve an educational purpose.

[Modo44]

Alright, since screenies are outdated, I'm making another one. And some comments, of course.

First of all, congratulations on kicking the **** out of the English. Well done. But don't let that stop you from kicking them some more.

City spots

• Ashur is no good, IMO. It gives a bad spacing around Nineveh (note, that there's a Mountain at Nineveh 44, that no city can work atm). It is there to take the Iron from the English, but you already have Iron available, and you didn't know if the English have some sources still hidden from us (they still might...). The location looks very awkward in the long run. To top it, bad luck caused it to sit on a BG.
  
  I'd move it a tile south. This would make the borders connect, giving you more tiles to work, before a culture expansion. It would allow you to work that Mountain without adding more cities, or moving any. And a city could still be placed at Canterbury 999 (now Samaria 999), to culture-rush the English. Sure, a coastal tile would be "lost" for Ashur, but hey - other cities will probably take it anyway.
  
• Uruk is too close to the capital for my tastes. I'd move it one tile north-east (to Babylon 9998). This crowding will make it very hard, if not impossible (hey, I can do double negation too ), to grow Babylon into a wonder factory later on. I prefer to leave some space for my capital to grow to size 14, or even bigger, once it's possible. In this case it would be very favorable - Eridu can use the spare land tiles to build infrastructure before Hospitals. After that, Babylon can take those tiles away, turning Eridu into a nice fishing-village (a high trade, low production city). And, since all the shields are unwasted, Babylon would become quite a production powerhouse, even with only 3 Hills around.
  
• Eridu is very nice, IMO. Can use Babyoln's tiles to build, then can be turned into a pure cash factory. All the Coast, and Sea squares only add to that. It "cleared" that Tundra tile as well. And, with a planned relocation of citizens into the Sea, it won't be taking tiles away from Babylon.
  
• Akkad is exactly on the spot I was thinking of, when talking about blocking the English expansion.

Other things...

• Why are you Roading Forests? Perhaps there is some reason I don't understand, but it's surely more efficient to Chop those tiles first. consider that you usually want the food, that hides beneath them. The only reason for a Road would be, to get a city connected ASAP. But that is not the case with all those roads, right?
  
• Ashur is building a Settler. It is small, and it has no Granary. Both facts disqualify it as a Settler-pump. Or are you going to abandon it, and relocate with the Settler?
  
• Babylon is building a Settler, while at size 2. Of course, it can do perfectly well going from size 2 to 3, then doing a Settler, then growing back, and so forth. BUT, if you let it grow to size 4 or 5 first, it will still be doing Settlers every 10 turns, with many units added inbetween. And you need some units to clear the north, and the east from barbarians. Also, Babylon is your capital, so all the gold, and beakers it produces, will remain unwasted. You already have 2 luxuries, so you probably wouldn't even have to move the lux slider to do that.
  
  I'm sure we talked about the ideas behind growing the capital, either in this thread, or in the previous Training Succession. Were you not listening, dear students?

One general note. Get some units, and kill those barbs. At the very least, make sure no camps are near your cities. You never know when others hit the Medieval Era, creating the massive uprisings. You really don't want that to happen this close to your core. If in a tight spot, send some units to fortify on Hills and Mountains - a Spear can usually take quite a few attacks, before dying.

Screenie, as promised.

[dmd175]

Update

Hi. I've played the next 20 turns. Will post when I get home - xmas party with g/f. Major developments - got philosophy, but not first. England in monarchy. Found yellow player, but could not get to him across see with curragh. Lost curragh x 2.

[dmd175]

750 BC (end of turn): Just rechecked all cities.

730 BC:

710 BC: IX Corps elite killed barb horse, -2hp. Eulbar founded 888 of Nineveh. New settler to 87 of Nottingham (a site suggested by PunkBass).

690 BC: IX Corps is going to die. There must have been a massive uprising SW of Nottingham as there are now 5 horse in his view and 3 left in the camp. Great. The english have an archer on the scene though, so hopefully he does some damage and dies. FYI England has about 3 archers out and about, and several workers, doing stupid things, like roading NE of London (presumably toward Nottingham). Worker 5 from Akkad to sugar. Sending warrior through English territory to other side.

670 BC: Worker6 from Eridu.

650 BC: Writing done. English will give math+20 for it, not math and poly. Next tech: literature or philosophy? Literature 10 turns, philo 20 turns. Unlikely that we will get it first? Only scientific civ vs us is Sumeria; Eng and Iroquois started with alphabet. Since the game seems to be going ok,
I'm going to gamble with philosophy and research it full blast. High chance of backfire - maybe this is not prudent on emperor+ in general?

630 BC: Nippur founded. To build temple, and since grows in ten turns, will pop rush temple on turn 10. Nippur cuts Nottingham off from English.

610 BC: IX Corp attacked twice, -3hp. Texcoco builds Colossus (faster than England's Hastings, which switches TOA). Nineveh to barracks; Samarra to spear, Eulbar to temple.
What to do with sugar in despotism? It is 2 food/1s/2gold. Since irrigation does nothing, I'm going
to put a mine on it.
Curragheous out of Samara and going NW. Hopefully he will find trading partners.
IX Corps kills barb camp and -1hp.

590 BC: Shuruppak 47 of Nineveh (on river). Workers around Babylon have nothing productive to do right now - ie they can mine hills, mine/irrigate normal grassland; so I'm going to have them road up unroaded squares and irrigate a few plans. Comments on this - what should be done?

570 BC: London builds temple, now granary.

550 BC: Aztec built TOA. Our warrior has explored NW most part of our continent, to which England is sending a settler spear team. In order to box England some more, London switch to settler, which will head to London 9998 or 998 and claim river. I think we can hold given our impending cultural dominance over England (250 v. 242 right now in our favor).

530 bc: S.S. Bab leaves Ashur and will head E. Sights barb camp NW of Eulbar.

510 BC:

490 BC: Uruk builds spear, now setter. Will send warrior out to due E of babylon to clear way for settler.

470 BC: Ur builds great library. Curragheous survives barb trireme attack. Settler from Ellipi to...Nott 12 (on river , lots BG). I'm building military in babylon and nineveh to clear the NE part of our continent and settle it before someone else does.

450 BC
430 BC: S.S. Bab will likely die, runs into 3 barb galleys. IX Corp clears barb camp S of Nottingham.

Enemy spotted! Somebody yellow, N of York and NW of Coventry. Might sink trying, but have to try to make contact.

[dmd175]

430 BC cont: Temples rushed in Nippur, Eridu, Eulbar...

410 BC: Good thing too, as Nottingham just expanded....which means my majestic city site is in their territory. Ok, I'll found on the hill 1 tile SE of planned site. Anyway, S.S. Bab comes 1 hp away from killing all three barb galleys. Other curragh sunk too . London settler moving out. Barbs NE of babylon going hog wild - must have triggered them w/ some NW/SE placement.

390 BC: English in anarchy, so they have monarchy. Zulu builds hanging.

370 BC: Zariqum founded to take a chunk from English, will pop rush temple in 10.

350 BC: Philsophy...alas, but not first. I know this becuase Iroquois put up MOM.

350 -310 BC: Roading, many barb horsies perish as they try to defend vs. swords.

290 BC: Three settlers out this turn: Akkad, Ellipi, Uruk. Uruk obviously to NE frontier; ellipi too. Akkad S of London --> cow. Killed barb camp S of Eridu.

270 BC:
250 BC: London settler, to 222. Izibia at Babylon 666. Barb camp N Uruk clear.

230 BC: Killed a few barb camps NE of Eulbar, NW of Izibia.

210 BC: Massive uprising near Sippar. Does that mean someone is in MA? Anyway, England has 3 archers going toward it and hopefully will take care of it. Literature --> CoL. Libraries going up.

190 BC: Carcemish at London 222.
170 BC:
150 BC: Mari @ cow S of London.

130 BC: Larsa far to E of Babylon near spice. Uh oh, check the barbs

[dmd175]

130-70 BC:
70 BC: Libraries in Babylon, Nineveh. Col done, Republic in 7.
50 BC: Libs in London, Ellipi, Zariqum, Shurrupak.
10 BC: Gems hooked up.

Pic: Been moving that warrior N to S to block that English settler, which is tyring to move E into our open land but keeps moving N and S - for many many turns

[dmd175]

Modo, saw your comments after these turns were played. I will respond to them later tonight hopefully.

[dmd175]

Originally posted by Modo44
First of all, congratulations on kicking the **** out of the English. Well done. But don't let that stop you from kicking them some more.

Thx. I think we will leave them only so long as trade and their status as a client state dictates. Then, hasta.

[list][*]Ashur is no good, IMO. It gives a bad spacing around Nineveh (note, that there's a Mountain at Nineveh 44, that no city can work atm). It is there to take the Iron from the English, but you already have Iron available, and you didn't know if the English have some sources still hidden from us (they still might...). The location looks very awkward in the long run. To top it, bad luck caused it to sit on a BG.

I'm surprised at you Emperor Modo - these are Babylonian citizens!!!!

Anyway, bad luck did take a BG. However, as I chop some forest I have uncovered other BG, and I think I might let it ride. I have founded another city in the interim to claim that unused mountain. I plan on founding a city at Samaria 999. And at the time, we did not have that other iron available, so this iron was necessary to have. (in fact, I'm not sure at 10 BC, some 1000 years later, that we have hooked up that other iron due to barb infestation). Finally, because this is a small map, there are not likely to be too many iron resources, so I think it was unlikely to be three on our small continent.

[*]Uruk is too close to the capital for my tastes.

Noted. It is too close in my general play style which is something like optimal / allowing about 19 tiles per city. However, we needed a core city at that time, we could not expand farther b/c barbs (see screenie on page 3), and this is only taking 1 tile out of babylon if we allow all tiles to be worked by the capital.

[*]Eridu is very nice, IMO. Can use Babyoln's tiles to build, then can be turned into a pure cash factory. All the Coast, and Sea squares only add to that. It "cleared" that Tundra tile as well.

Thanks. It was a tossup between getting fish and clearing tundra vs. get on river and crowd Babylon.

[list][*]Why are you Roading Forests? Perhaps there is some reason I don't understand, but it's surely more efficient to Chop those tiles first. consider that you usually want the food, that hides beneath them. The only reason for a Road would be, to get a city connected ASAP. But that is not the case with all those roads, right?

Point taken about chop before roads. Thanks. If we are talking about same roads on forests, they were either to hook up fur in attempt to trade, or to connect the two border cities in order to mobilize units to front in case of english sneak attack.

[*]Babylon is building a Settler, while at size 2...BUT...
I'm sure we talked about the ideas behind growing the capital

Noted. I had let Babylon do some growing before the next settler it pumped.

Get some units, and kill those barbs. At the very least, make sure no camps are near your cities. You never know when others hit the Medieval Era, creating the massive uprisings.

In progress, but maybe a bit too late.