AU 503 DAR 2: Up to 1000 BC

[alexman]

This is the second spoiler thread for AU 503: Pillage and Plunder.

Describe how you have positioned yourself in the second 40 turns of the game. How have the special parameters of this game affected your strategic decisions? Have you continued to have success harassing the AI with your Chasqi Scouts? What lessons have you learned so far? What are your plans for the future?

[nbarclay]

Emperor Level, AU Mod

It's 900 BC, and I've done neither pillaging nor plundering so far. As much as I hate missing the theme for this game, I'm highly skeptical that this scenario is a good fit for its theme. With us starting so far from the Mongols, and the Mongols having a great starting position while we have a poor one, the range of different approaches to using pillaging effectively in this scenario is a lot smaller than it would be in a more evenly matched situation. By the time I was ready to start building pillagers, the Mongols were too big, with too much of a size advantage, for me to feel like sending pillagers down was likely to be worth the cost. And with the Mongols probably standing to gain at least as much as I would if I pillaged the other AIs, pillaging one of the others didn't seem like an especially worthwhile thing to do either.

I ended up building a barracks in my capital, followed by a handful of vet warriors for MPs in between settlers. I only have one Chasqui so far, and he's been staying near home. (The high point of his career was a raid on a barb camp.) I researched Mathematics, only to have one of the AIs extort it from me, with the end result that all I was able to get from it was Iron Working (and even that cost me a little gold). I'm now working on Currency, hoping I can trade it to catch up some in the tech race.

In the meantime, in what is very likely a mistake, I decided to make a bid for the Statue of Zeus. Even if I get it, I likely would have done better focusing on REXing and then on building conventional units. And there's a significant danger that I'll lose it in a wonder cascade. Still, the wonder will be nice to have if I do get it, and denying it to the Mongols would be worth something.

I'm up to six cities now, four of them (including the capital) with granaries. So even with the capital tied up with the SoZ, I'm hoping I can expand to take advantage of what little decent REXing territory is left available for me in a reasonable amount of time. Then I'll probably build up my military, try to line up an alliance against the Mongols, and hope that a combination of human skill and AI allies can overcome the considerable size difference between them and me.

Nathan

[jim_steer]

Still No Pillaging!!!!

AU503 - Emperor

Not much to report, spent most of my time in a battle of attrition against the evil barbarian hordes and rexing. The rise of the Mongols seems to be unstoppable, they are one tech (Monarchy) ahead of the Hittites and I. The Scandinavians seem to have dropped off a bit and are 3 techs off the pace. Only Currency and Construction to go then I will be in the Medieval Age

I have tried sending a few curraghs off to get intercontinental contacts but once they enter sea the pesky little critters seem to drop like flys and they can't enter ocean at all Realistic but damn annoying!

As Nathan noted REXing space is now in very short supply, even more so for me due to the popped mongol city near my borders. I started to build up my millitary about 20 turns ago with the intention of pushing the insidious Mongols back a bit. Unfortunately the Hittites decided that I was getting a bit cocky and sent a most amusing 7 Warrior SOD at me. I managed to fight the evil Hittites off but they forced me to stop roading my iron one turn before it was complete this forcing me to build archers

So far this AU course has taught me that the Incas suck with out lots of nice long rivers, I wish I had my lovely Mayans or Sumerians

[Conqueror]

Pillaging like mad

Emperor, AU Mod

Had to boot to attach this lovely image

Can you see any improvements in the land of Hittities ?

Answer : no - my chasqui have pillaged them all, with a little help from the starting scout

[Conqueror]

Research: after losing the race on Mysticism to Hittities by 1 turn, i again lose Polytheism to them by - surprise - 1 turn again !

I see that Monarchy would cost 50 turns, even with 100 %, so i go for Maths. Manage to research that first, and trade it to Vikes & Mongols. After this i choose to go 100 % on Currency. Nobody on our continent has researched Philosophy yet - i should have researched 100% on Philosophy But too late now - propably. Someone who i dont know yet got to have researched it by now.

I'm quite confident of having SoZ, only 13 turns to go, unless someone from other landmasses builds it first, GL is most likely gone tho, Vikes are nearly done with it.

Hittities try to extort math and i refuse - they declare ofcourse. I buy alliance against them from my old enemy Mongolia.

Good amount of pillaging done in Hittite lands as seen on previous screenshot I sure filled my quota of pillage, pillage, pillage

Lessons learned - hm - how to use far away former AI city more effectively than before.

My opinion on Chasqui - its great unit with the reduced cost Very entertaining to use it on pillage purposes and run from AI to other side of hill/mountain.

[nbarclay]

Moving a discussion here from the DAR 1 thread:

Originally posted by alexman

A choice? Of all things, it's kind of strange to hear a complaint about having to make a choice. I feel that the AU will not teach you as much as it could if you impose artificial restrictions like "use your Chasquis for pillaging". Instead, I tried to pick a map that makes Chasqui harassment a viable alternative to outright REXing.

The thing that bothers me is not the idea of having to make choices, but rather the nature of the choices presented in this game. In my view, when an AU game is intended to explore a particular facet of Civ, the choices presented to players ought to encourage them to explore that facet. With a bit higher-production in the capital, players would still have had a choice of whether to focus their initial builds on REXing or on pillaging, but the choice to start off by building pillagers would not have set REXing back as much. Also, with higher production, players who started with a granary and a settler would have had a better chance to build pillagers afterward in time to do some good. Players would still have had choices, and the choices available would still have included not pillaging at all. But the choices available would have been more oriented a bit more toward the course's objective.

For players who decide to delay their pillaging expedition a bit, the huge difference between our starting position and the Mongols' creates an additional problem. When I built my granary, my plan was merely to delay my pillaging a bit. My idea was that although the delay would make the impact on my victims less crippling, I would avoid risking quite as early a GA and I'd be a bit farther ahead in my own REXing. But the difference between the Mongols' starting position and mine was so huge that my decision to delay pillaging ended up turning into a decision not to pillage at all. I suppose that can be considered a useful lesson regarding the risks of delaying pillaging, but it adds absolutely nothing to my actual pillaging experience.

Nathan

[alexman]

So this whole rant about a poorly-designed scenario is because you wanted "a bit" more production in your capital? Just because you have made it a habit to build a Granary before anything else, you want that strategy to always be a good one? Pillaging is something that needs to be done urgently (that's why it's even harder to pull off at higher difficulty levels). If you get the option to pillage after you have set yourself up for REX, then pillaging becomes nothing other than an amusing tactic to win a game that you can already win more efficiently by other means - much like privateers are.

An advantage of expansionist civilizations is that they can quickly scout and find their most threatening neighbors. If you had done any type of scouting before your automatic REX, or if you had followed the hint in the main thread that "ancient-age pillaging tactics might give your Incas the best chance for victory on this map", you would have realized that you needed to harass the Mongols as soon as possible.

Having said all that, I'm glad that at least some people ignored the pillaging theme in this course, because that will give us the chance to compare the two strategies, and to see just how effective pillaging really is as a valid strategy, rather than just as a toy.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alexman
So this whole rant about a poorly-designed scenario is because you wanted "a bit" more production in your capital? Just because you have made it a habit to build a Granary before anything else, you want that strategy to always be a good one?

I'd appreciate it if you would try to avoid getting personal about this, and I'll try to do the same.

Contrary to your impression of me, I normally do build additional scouting units when I play Expansionist civs. With the better results Expansionists get from huts, building units for scouting is more attractive with Expansionist civs than with other civs. And that was my initial plan in this game.

But three things conspired to change my mind. (1) With the capital having to work a fish until its borders expanded unless I was willing to sacrifice growth, early production was so terrible that by the time I could have finished a Chasqui, my original scoult was finished exploring in one of the two available directions and could start exploring in the other. That made additional scouting capacity significantly less valuable than it would have been if I could have gotten a Chasqui or two out more quickly. (2) With low production, the time required to build early Chasquis before a granary would have cost more growth potential than it would have with higher production. (3) Without a particularly good site available for a second city, and without my first two cities being able to share a worker (at least unless I gave up on the idea of irrigating in a timely manner) the idea of a Chasqui-settler or Chasqui-Chasqui-settler build pattern was less attractive than it would have been otherwise.

Those factors, on top of routine concerns about GA timing (which, by the way, are also greater in a civ that grows slowly), led me to change my plans and build a granary first. But I arrived at that decision reluctantly as a departure from my original game plan, not as something I did automatically without thinking about the situation.

Pillaging is something that needs to be done urgently (that's why it's even harder to pull off at higher difficulty levels).

Pillaging is definitely time-sensitive, but the combination of our having a lousy starting position and our nearest neighbor's having a very good one makes it a lot more time-sensitive in this game than it would be on average. That skews the learning experience.

If you get the option to pillage after you have set yourself up for REX, then pillaging becomes nothing other than an amusing tactic to win a game that you can already win more efficiently by other means - much like privateers are.

Who says a game where a player can REX reasonably competitively can be won more efficiently without pillaging than with? That was one of the issues I'd hoped to explore with this course. It's starting to sound like what you've done is to superimpose your concept of the "proper" use of pillaging on the scenario's design, thereby preventing us from learning as much as we otherwise could about the use of pillaging in more normal games.

When I proposed the concept of an AU course focused on pillaging, my desire was to explore how useful pillaging is as a general, regular part of tactics for civs with good pillaging UUs and to explore the best ways to use pillaging in that context. What I wanted was a fairly normal game, the results of which would often be applicable to other fairly normal games.

What we got was a game where the pillaging concept is intertwined with another, largely separate issue: overcoming an exceptionally bad starting position. That leads to an interesting and challenging scenario, but intermixing such a large separate issue is going to make it a lot harder to figure out how what we learn applies in more normal games. Further, the scenario's rather extreme nature significantly limits the range of options that we can try and compare - and, in the process, led to my not getting anything I considered a "good" chance to pillage at all.

[Tassadar500]

Could you guys take it out of the DAR's? If this needs to take place, it should go in a different thread.

[Aeson]

The Vikings decided I looked like an easy target, and demanded 22g from me. Normally I'd just give it to them, put them on the top of "the list" and continue on my way, but oh well. To War!

It took the Vikings a while to get anything to me, and when they did I was ready. I set up a kill zone just S of the Sugar Hills, all my expansion having been to the N so far. I had 2 Elite Archers waiting when their first Warrior and 2 Archers showed up, with a couple of Vets in reserve. I killed the Warrior and an Archer the first turn, then with my 4/5 HP Elite, killed the last Acher the next. Tupa...something something... showed up and took credit for the impressive victory!

Problem was I didn't want to fill an Army with Archers, and only had 3 cities anyways. So Tupa went and sat around waiting for me to get another city built. Writing finished, and I started on Iron Working at 100% (12 turns). With all those mountains there has to be Iron right?

The Mongols didn't like my Chasqui wandering around in their territory, and demanded I remove it. This is one of the drawbacks of the Chasqui, as regular Scouts can stay in AI territory almost indefinitely. Bad luck ensued, and the place I was teleported to was next to a stack of Viking Warriors. They attacked, my Chasqui won and was promoted, and my GA started. Definitely wasn't planning on that.

I built my 4th city, and made an Army. I decided I would fill it with Chasqui Scouts, and no roads, mines, or irrigation shall survive! I only had 1 Chasqui at the time, far to the S, so I started building some more. The Vikings landed by the Oasis with a Sword and a Settler. Then they did something I've never seen before, they attacked and killed one of my Archers (I had 2 that had been cleaning up Barbs) on a Mountain with the Sword... and the Settler went off on it's own?!?! I dispatched of the Sword with my other Archer, and a newly built Chasqui loaded into the Army and captured the Settler.

I finished Iron Working quickly due to my GA, and I went with a 4 turn CB, as I needed to expand some borders. After that I went with a 50 turn Mathmatics, as I planned on extorting the rest of the Ancient Era techs.

The Vikings landed again just a turn later, a Spear and Settler in the same spot. I pondered exploiting the Oasis of infinite Workers, but decided against it. I sent 2 more Archers, 2 Warriors, and a Settler to claim the penninsula. This time the Vikings just built their city (on the Oasis... duh). My mini-SOD was able to destroy the city (just barely, last Warrior took out the Spear), and I planted my own. Just not on the Oasis..

The Mongols set up an Embassy with me, and I noticed that they were at war with the Hittites. I set up an Embassy with the Hittites, and they were willing to part with more than the Mongols for my help. First I made peace with the Vikings though, getting Mysticism for a few gold. Then I signed up against the Mongols for Literature + 16g. The Vikings are at war with the Hittites too, so this should be interesting.

I added 2 more Chasqui to my Army, and sent it off S. The Mongols shall pay dearly!

(I know this is a terrible exploit of the AI... an Army with almost no defense running around AI territory practically invulnerable... but it's just too much fun... can't wait until all my 'little' Chasqui start hiding underneath it! )

[Tarquinius]

First off I want to say I really like the rough map
Although I usually play dry maps, I never make 'em 3 billion years old! I played this one on Monarch with AU mod. As my internet connection at home is not working properly at the moment I cannot post any screenies or DAR's.

I am suprised nbarclay thinks pillaging is no good on this map. When I saw the numerous hills and mountains near me, and the reduced possibilites of getting a lot of food, I realized I had to harrass the enemy as soon as possible!

I always build a granary as quickly as possible, (usually after two warriors/scouts) but I decided to build two chasqui' s first, then built a barracks, settler, and a lot of Chasqui scouts. I captured the mongol worker, pillaged their ivory and cows. Then I made peace to them, and then I saw the Mongols burning a Hitite city! I decided to join in and pillaged all the Hitite squares, and captured their workers, and a settler. Later on I managed to capture their capital and thay were of no importance anymore.

Then I realized there was another civ on the continent! The Mongols grew really slow, because they built so many units instead of settlers. But the Vikings were left untouched and were quite big. I decided I would do a major raid on them
When I had readied 5 Chasquis near them, and one in their territory I declared war and pillaged nearly every tile.
I captured a few workers as well, and disbanded them. I bought the Mongols in and they wasted a large number of archers against each other (no Iron for the Vikings anymore )

I am amazed how strong pillaging is...although I sacrificed my own growth, I had crippled all the AI' s, so that they were in the same pitiful state as me
With statue of Zeus ready I was ready to kick major butt...but I will continue later, in another thread. (I already passed the DAR limit for this thread anyway, my war against the Vikings was around 600 BC)

Thanks for this relevation Alexman, I learned a new type of play! And it is really weird...the pace of the game is sooo slow...the other continent is far ahead of me. (I know because of the wonders) I really am going to try the Zulus a few times. (on a different map of course)

(BTW: I think Alexman put the ivory in both our and the Mongol territory, to encourage pillaging the Mongols, so the player can build the Statue of Zeus in peace.)

[LzPrst]

this time it worked out a little better. same as before except started out with chasqui's. sent one to mongrel and one to hittite. the hittites were taken with their pants down by a warrior I found in a hut, they lost all improvements to that little fellow. then I stole 2 workers from the mongrels and sent them home to build me a road. after a while I accepted peace with both civs, having given especially mongol a run for their improvements shortly thereafter a group of 3 mongol workers were out slaving in the fields. an executive desicion led to their inclusion in the inca empire.
then the vikings decided that my hard-earned philosophy belonged to them and declared war on me. a suicide chasqui made it quite far and pillaged a lot before he was finally cornered north of trondheim and slain, after killing 2 archers. if that doesnt warrant a heroic epic, what does?
all in all the mongols are reduced, theyre not nearly as large or as advanced as they were in my initial attempts a short pointless war with the vikings may have also helped stunt their growth, the hittites are a little backward but the vikings are potentially a big threat, luckily their land isnt too good so I think I can beat them.
thats all for now.
hitttite and mongol both have a mere 4 cities while I have 5 and the vikings 6, though they're probably beating themselves over the head regretting not having the industrious trait. suckers.
the biggest problem is the jungle to my south, not much hope of expansion there.
and yeah, I forgot, got my GA triggered rather early, but nothing to do about that now. I am planning to build a large army of swords and spears and cracking mongols head in. then I might relocate my capital...
only problem is, what about the other two...
am building SoZ, it will be done just about never, but at least I'm building it.

[Tassadar500]

Would you mind posting a pic? It's always more fun for me that way

[ducki]

Alright, in 1675, after positioning my forces, I pillage the Mongols' Ivory with a scout, nab a worker with a warrior, one Chasqui retreats from a warrior guarding a worker while the second Chasqui wins handily. The scout, worker, and conscript warrior move to cover the injured Chasqui, leaving the uninjured one feeling mighty lonely in the open plains next to Karakorum. Tactically, I'm not sure who I should have guarded, but the healthy one still has a chance to retreat. Plus....
I buy Ragnar's services with Ironworking, The Wheel, and Mysticism, while he throws 25 gold to my messenger, presumably as a tip.
And Ragnar has troops nearby from a recent barbarian hunt, so "reinforcements" are at hand. I hope.

The Golden Age brings completion on the SoZ down to 54 turns. I could bring it down to 39 if I was willing to stunt growth, but I pass for now. Machu Picchu, my city by the lake, abandons construction of a barracks in favor of another Chasqui, to complete in 2 turns. Tiwanaku maintains focus on its Granary and has one worker and one slave improving its area. The original worker is still bringing water through the desert to the capitol. "When I'm kicking you that means dig FASTER!"

Ahh! My Conscript warrior fends of an archer with no damage! Glory be!
I pair my Conscript warrior with the healthy Chasqui - the Chasqui moves and pillages and the warrior follows to guard, though I should have paired him with the scout scout. Duh.

In 1475, a Chasqui sacks Ta-tu, stealing 2 gold and humiliating the Mongols. Strike that. That wasn't Ta-tu. It was some other town in the jungle. Ta-tu is next up, but probably has a spearman.

1375BC - the Chinese complete the Oracle - first wonder of the game.
1150BC - Our Golden Age ends, as does our Alliance with Ragnar. The damn fool honored the full 20 turns. Grr. Time for peace, naturally, now that I've got swordsmen running around.

Since my age of pillaging is over and the usefulness of the Chasqui is at an end, I recklessly attack an Elite Archer and a Vet Archer. I kill the vet, but retreat from the Elite. Hehe.
For peace, I can take Ta-tu, Horseback Riding(of little value without horses, but required for advancement, and 19 gold. Alternately, I can take the town of Hovd, just SE of Mongol capitol instead of HBR.
Ta-tu is a cruddy town, but if I rush a temple, I may be able to annex some horses. It's too far from home to be much use production-wise, but I can set it on 10-turn workers if nothing else while the Temple does it's thing....
Hovd would be purely a machiavellian ploy. I'd gift it to the Hittites to cause friction, or the Vikings to increase it.
Also, I'm 21 turns from the SoZ. The Mongols were working on the Pyramids when I built the Embassy and I pillaged every square they had even close to the capitol. I'm only 4 turns from the Colossus, which lasts much longer and provides a more flexible reward. Acquiring horses may be difficult, but if the iron holds out, I think I can make do without mounted troops, worst case.

It was a bit late in coming, but my pillaging rampage was quite productive. I've sowed discontent between the Vikings and Mongols, I think. I removed all tile improvements within view of the capitol, and took 2 slaves, killed a scout, a few archers and a couple of warriors, razed a town, irrigated my capitol, built most of a wonder, added a town to my desert, connected my iron and generally had a whale of a time.

It's not Aeson-level AI-squishing, but definitely a nice tool to have in the bag.


I think I'll sleep on it...

I take Ta-tu, Hovd, and 19gold. I'll give Hovd away, probably to the Hittites. I wonder if that will influence the direction of their expansion...
Anyway, I could easily press the war on the Mongols, but would rather get back to expansion.

I decide to trade Ragnar Polytheism for HBR and a RoP. I want to be his best friend, since I can't take him out before Berserks and he's the only one without Poly.
Research Monarchy at 50 turn base - can't quite afford 43.(Actually, the two Mongol towns push me to 46-turn pace. Changing each citizen to a scientist pushes me to 32. Since corruption makes these pointless(mostly), I think I'll take the beakers for now. I wonder how long I can keep Hovd before it flips...

Mursilis and I both have Currency on the other two.

Arrrgh!!!! 1125 BC. One turn after I make peace with the Mongols(and sign an RoP with Ragnar), the Vikings make peace and turn on me, demanding Currency. Gaah!!!!!
Then I notice my advisor. I'm sorry to disappoint you, Ragnar, but I will not be bullied by the likes of you.... yet. Ours will be a friendship of equals.... until you discover Invention.

In 1075BC, I change my mind on the SoZ and switch to the Colossus, wasting 1 shield(because I'm an idiot and forgot last turn) and finishing in 1050BC. I decided +1gpt/tile until Flight was worth more to me than the ACav, and I still have a shot at the Statue if I want it, though "better" wonders are around the corner...

Cuzco begins a settler that will complete one turn after Tiwanaku's, so Tiwanaku can start to fill out the Northern Peninsula before the Vikings get any ideas and Cuzco can work on the south before the Hittites head north. I hope. I sure with I could magically have a temple, harbor, and galley from a couple of towns.

In 1025BC, a barbarian gathering is found near the dyes, which will require dispatching Cuzco's MP and force the luxury slider up. Glad I built the Colossus.

In 1000BC, the Hittites demand half our treasury, and being unsure whether they have horses or not, I give in, but add this incident to my list.

The empire is virtually unchaged from the last DAR, but here it is anyway.

NM clear your PMs, please.

[Aqualung71]

Following on from my first DAR, I have played 2 distinctly different games up to 1000BC to try to gauge the difference between pillaging and following my traditional REXing strategy. The effect of the different strategies by the end of this period is quite interesting.

1. Traditional REX

By 1000BC I was still only up to 4 towns and was at war with the Vikings for refusing to cave in to extortion, which was a bit dumb. I am 3 techs behind all 3 neighbours and researching Mathematics with a view to building the SoZ. Score 169 vs Scandinavia’s 302, with the Mongols at 293 and the Hittites on 212.

The Mongols have 6 towns, the Hittites 3, and the Vikings 8. The Mongols and Hittites had been warring, but the Mongols have the edge.

Ragnar had sent a stream of warriors and archers up the peninsular to attend to his war duties, which diverted some of our resources towards spearmen. We kept our CS out of the way in order to delay our GA until we were in a better government.

Not building enough workers to get the irrigation going earlier has probably been the biggest mistake so far.