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Originally posted by nbarclay
Conqueror, what was the battle for Kazan like? I'm curious about what the odds were.
Odds were not very good, attacked reg warrior (city was on plains) with reg Chasqui, but i tought actually about quiting the game at that point, had played the turns without thinking too much.
If i had lost that battle, i would propably not continued (atleast not right away). Did not actually even expect to win.
Still, it's a good bet because you are risking a few shields for the chance to take out a city. I was so intent on pillaging that I passed up a nice long-shot bet with a big win, if high odds.
I restarted on Deity. Tried to keep to my start as much as possible.
I didn't stall growth with the Granary, but seriously considered it. Was able to shave off a turn on the Granary build because of it, so basically was trading 7 shields for 2 food. Eventually that 2 food would pay back the 7 shields (1 turn at +5, 2 non-wasted shields), but I really needed the upfront advantage.
My Scout headed N, exploring out the end of the peninsula. Made contact with the Vikings, trading Pottery + Masonry to them for Alphabet + 10g. Had been researching Alphabet at a 50 turn pace, and switched to Writing. Then my Scout backtracked and headed S.
I found my only hut so far in the S Jungles, got a Warrior. The Warrior headed E and was killed by Barbarians a few turns later.
Made contact with the Mongols and Hittites a turn apart. The Hittites must have been lucky with huts as they had 2 techs the Mongols and Vikings didn't. I traded Masonry+3gpt+87g to them for The Wheel. The Mongols had 3 Workers in their capitol (sometimes high barbs are good ), so I traded The Wheel + Masonry + 2gpt + 1g for all 3 Workers. Then I traded The Wheel to the Vikings for Bronze Working and Warrior Code. This left me with just enough gpt to keep paying for a 50 turn Writing and still be making money.
After the Granary I built an Archer, as it was obvious I would need to be killing Barbs. I sent the Archer up to find any barb camps near the Dyes as I planned to build the second city in that direction. Started building a Settler. The Archer killed 2 Barbs in a camp it found, getting promoted to Veteran in the process. That allowed my Settler to head N and build my second city. The Archer healed up, and went out looking for the next Barb camp. Found a Warrior and Horseman in a camp on the Desert peninsula, killing the Warrior and getting set to take out the camp.
My Scout has made it down through the Hittite lands. I built my first Chasqui, but I don't think there will be much chance to do any major pillaging. The Mongols have already started Zues, which would have meant the Ivory would have been a good target for pillaging if I could have gotten a Chasqui down there soon enough. I don't know where their Ivory is yet anyways, so I don't think it would be possible on Deity.
Everyone has Writing, Mathmatics, Horseback Riding, Ceremonial Burial, and Mysticism on me already. I still have 18 turns left on Writing. Doesn't look like there will be any shot for Philosophy, probably not the GL either. The tech rate is actually going faster than it did on my Sid run to this point. Must have been a few techs from huts.
Alright, this start was so engaging, I forgot to take notes and accidentally played through to 1990BC. Sue me.
I'm playing on Monarch simply because my free time is greatly reduced by a toddler and I don't want to work hard enough to be "good" at Emperor just now, so Monarch it is.
Anyway, I lied in the teaser thread. I did scout first, worker to the hill and scout to the plains-wheat, and yet I still settled on-the-spot. My reasoning, flawed as it may be, was that I wanted the "instant" 10 shields from a chop very early worse than I wanted the (limited by Despotism) extras that the whale offered. Additionally, not needing to road the Ivory added to the attractiveness of the spot. Finally, unlike the move to the forest, this spot allows me to ferry boats back-and-forth from east-sea to west-sea, not that I built any.
I started with a Chasqui, as I assume most would.
My scout moved to the northernmost mountain to ensure I had a "good" spot for city #2 and spied fish and dyes. A couple more moves and I knew the northern area was a peninsula and headed back south.
By the time improvements were complete on the hill, I knew of a lovely lake in the mountains that cried out to me. knowing I wanted a resort there, I queued up another Chasqui and then a settler, bidding my worker build a road to the mountains.
Machu Picchu was founded on the hillside and Tiwanaku on the hill NE of the plains-wheat, taking over worker-settler duties. First a worker, then a granary, with the worker chopping the forest and a Viking slave(bought, alas!) connects it to the capitol and begins mining the wheat. Cuzco completed the Tiwanaku settler almost the same turn that Math was discovered and began building the Statue of Zeus immediately, though it's 98 turns away. Still, I think it will be handy considering the distance to the nearest horses. Connecting Iron is high on my list, though not quite tops.
I made a couple of tech trades at monopoly prices to play the middle-man and also sold Math for a hefty fee even though the Mongols reached it on the same turn I did, though nothing of particular note.
I have 3 Chasquis and 2 warriors that I built, 2 warriors from huts, and somewhere I picked up Warrior Code from a hut, I think.
I've explored what I believe to be nearly all of the home landmass; in fact, I've explored to a fault when I should have been harassing the Mongols - which I intend to do as soon as I can get 2 warriors and 2 Chasquis along with the starting scout into position.
On the side, I really like the Chasqui. Maintaining fast-mover ability on hills and mountains is huge on an old map like this and I'm sure it'll be even more important as I prepare to harry the Mongols. All I can say is "Thank gods it's not the Zulu!"
Thanks for a very challenging start alexman, I can't wait to play more, so off I go!
Attached Files
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
Phew... started out on Emperor, found the infinite joys of the start location Never been much of a pillager, but sent my CSs down to harass the Hittites. Unfortunately, the Mongols joined in the war, and I'm far too numerically outnumbered to accomplish much more than a 1-tile hit and run here and there. Plus, I see the stacks heading for my homelands ever so slowly. I could probably hold them off, but the game is clearly a lost cause from this early point. Going to try again in Monarch. I guess alexman was right about the level...
Ok, started off. Monarch level...
Moved the settler 7 to the forest in order to get whale and grain once cultural expansion kicks in making "cuzco" a potentially big city...
explored a little found the vikings (saw a warrior on a mountain across some water... luck) and a hittite warrior being chased by a mongol warrior... 3 contacts in 5 turns, not bad.
traded away masonry and pottery i think... for ceremonial burial and warrior code. got alphabet from the hittites for a similar price and the wheel from a small hut somewhere in the deep jungles of "mountain road" as I've dubbed them. got mysticism from mongols in return for some tech or the other.
War with the mongols in 2470bc. pillaged their cows
founded my second city at 9-9-8-8 forcing cuzco to share the grain. cuzco's got sugar, whale and fish allowing fair food supply and with the elephant mined a little production if it ever reaches size 4.
the mongols are attacking my poor scout with an archer but he ran off
the mongols have sent off an army of 2 warriors and an archer. I suspect I'm their target. I'll be seeing those guys in some 20-30 turns maybe
hmm, since everyone else is playing on emperor, I'm thinking about cranking it up a notch... but now I know where things are...
I'll do it anyway and give a more detailed report of my play.
Moved 7 to the forest as last time founded Cuzco. Building a CS from the get-go. researching bronzew at 100%
sent my explorer south into the desert. I almost consider this cheating since I would have sent it north into the good lands if I didnt already know what was there, but hey, its emperor level
roaded the elephant with my worker and moved south to the sugar hill getting ready to mine it for some production when Cuzco expands.
got maps in the hut met the mongols and got a crappy deal gave them masonry and cash for warrior code. built my Chasqui and sent him south, then a warrior for MP and then a settler.
2850 bc met the vikings, got the alphabet and some cash for 2 techs.
2750 met the hittites with my chasqui and decided to try to kill off a warrior in order to get a settler. didnt work and now i'm in for it...
invented CB and decided to go for writing, might take a while...
with my new settler I founded city nr 2 9-9-8-8 from the capital.
and my newest chasqui headed for the hittites was killed... by barbs... easy cash my a$$.
and thats that. a considerably worse game than the monarch version.
should I do another restart :hmm: everything sux on both saves and I cant remember what I've done now either... made lots of mistakes as well. havent planned ahead at all. too much on impulse...
this is just A-noying... the worst being that a chasqui cant win a battle. it seems that every time I've been attacked they've died. and every time i use them to counterattack a 1 red bar archer or warrior or whatever the full health chasqui dies. ridiculous...
and they dont retreat either!!!
after playing a while I've come to the following conclusion, bugger.
I successfully pillaged the hittites to death, but by then the mongols were KAI and when I tried to mess with them a group of "invincible" archers started marching on me. I'm having a lot of difficulty on this game...
Well I've been tinkering around with this game and have played it several times in different ways to see what works for me and what doesn't. I've actually progressed 2 games up to the 1000BC point, so I'll report on both to get some idea of the difference from my point of view. Both are at Emperor level.
1. Traditional REX
I started the way most people seem to have – moved my worker to the sugar, scout north to find the wheat and settler west to access the whale and maximize short term growth opportunities. Upon settlement, I worked the fish tile in order to maximize early research, and started with a slow Granary build, researching Alphabet. The worker roaded the sugar, and the completion of that coincided with the first border expansion.
By 2150BC I had built a granary in my capital and established a second town on the northern hills. I had only 1 CS by then. I also found the Viking Warrior as he popped a hut across the sea, which opened some trade opportunities. I had arrived at Writing first and was able to trade it around so that I was only trailing the Hittites by HBR, parity with the Mongols and 3 ahead of the Vikings.
2. Let’s Go a-Pillaging
I went back and restarted in order to more closely follow the game theme. I built 4 CS to start with and sent them south one after another. After circling the wagons for a while, I finally jumped on a couple of Mongol workers and pillaged their Ivory, then continued on with 2 or 3 more juicy tiles. Then bgan the slow process of bringing the workers back to civilization while trying to avoid the Mongol warriors scattered around the jungles. I didn’t feel confident enough to attack any Mongol towns with my regular CS’, but if I had done so successfully it would probably have made a much greater difference.
By 2150BC I had made peace with the Mongols for a tech swap and was researching Mathematics to go for SoZ. If successful, I plan to embark on a second round of pillaging using AC. My GA was triggered by a Mongol Warrior, which was pretty hard to avoid. Tech parity with the Hittites, the Mongols had HBR and wouldn’t swap it for my IW, and I was 3 ahead of the Vikings. I had built a granary in the capital and was 3 turns away from my first settler, so way behind in REXing. My CS were approaching the Hittite lands to see what mischief they could cause there!
Thoughts:
On this map, the pillaging option is severely restricted IMHO. You must either build 3 or 4 Chasqui’s right off the bat and send them a-pillaging, or drop the idea completely. Our start location is so far from the Mongols/Hittites that by the time you get there they have established themselves reasonably well. Also, by my count, the closest Mongol city was 18 tiles from the freshwater lake and 22 tiles from the sugar near our capital. So pillaging to capture a few half-speed workers is rather a long term investment (though it does slow the AI down considerably), since it takes close to 1,000 years to get them back to your territory where they can actually contribute to the economy! And roading the hills and mountains as they went didn’t seem very smart, unless I was planning ahead for the year 1500AD or so.
I also learnt that you have to be selective when pillaging, and finding opportunities where you could pillage a road and still be safe from counter-attack was very rare indeed….so much so that avoiding a despotic GA is well nigh impossible using the pillaging strategy.
Anyway, the small amount of pillaging I was able to do did seem to dent the Mongols somewhat.
Scouts are pretty useless beasts when there are lots of barbs around – you have to be ultra careful where you send them, and must avoid everything except grassland and plains or risk walking into an unexpected surprise.
So if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse, or I'll lay your soul to waste Re-Organisation of remaining C3C PBEMS
So if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse, or I'll lay your soul to waste Re-Organisation of remaining C3C PBEMS
How come no one is migrating the initial settler even though Alexman broadly hinted in the setup that there was water -- just not "immediately" available?
Because we're not as insightful or intuitive as you, jshelr
Seriously though, your bravery in doing so was impressive! An intriguing trade-off. I'm very interested to know whether you feel the significant delay in founding your capital (what, 7 turns?) was worth the better terrain and more central position.
So if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse, or I'll lay your soul to waste Re-Organisation of remaining C3C PBEMS
I just realized that I've been playing the stock version! while most of you have been playing the AU mod v. I'm gonna have to start over, AGAIN!!! this course is torture.
), so I traded The Wheel + Masonry + 2gpt + 1g for all 3 Workers. Then I traded The Wheel to the Vikings for Bronze Working and Warrior Code. This left me with just enough gpt to keep paying for a 50 turn Writing and still be making money.
Never been much of a pillager, but sent my CSs down to harass the Hittites. Unfortunately, the Mongols joined in the war, and I'm far too numerically outnumbered to accomplish much more than a 1-tile hit and run here and there. Plus, I see the stacks heading for my homelands ever so slowly. I could probably hold them off, but the game is clearly a lost cause from this early point. Going to try again in Monarch. I guess alexman was right about the level...
met the mongols and got a crappy deal gave them masonry and cash for warrior code. built my Chasqui and sent him south, then a warrior for MP and then a settler.
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