AU 503 DAR 1: Up to 2150 BC

[alexman]

This is the first spoiler thread for AU 503: Pillage and Plunder.

Describe how you managed your upstart civilization the first 40 turns of the game. How did you deal with the lack of fresh water? Have you had success harassing the AI with your Chasqi Scouts? What lessons have you learned so far? What are your plans for the next 40 turns?

[nbarclay]

Emperor Level, Apolyton University Mod

This game almost rivals Son of So Very Cold in how sadistic the starting position is, and the immediate environs of the starting positionl are actually worse if I recall correctly. (For those who weren't around then, Son of SVC was an AU game under the original Civ 3 in which we started on an island that was relatively small and had limited production potential. It was deliberately designed to force players to overcome a bad starting position.)

I started this game by moving my worker onto the hill and my scout 9-8. I then decided to move my settler 8, thinking I'd probably do best settling in what I hoped would be grasslands to the north. But my settler move showed me a whale, so I decided to settle on the forest instead of looking for a more distant place that might (or might not) be better. That left me with the fish as my only 2-food tile until my capital expanded, which was lousy for production but at least it was useful for gold. More importantly, it gave me the sugar hill, the wheat, and the whale as tiles with both food and production once the capital expanded.

Initially, I thought I'd probably go with a Chasqui and a settler as my first two builds, but I changed my mind when I couldn't find any particularly attractive sites for an early second city. (The main problem was that I would have needed a second worker, which I didn't have, to get much advantage out of it.) I ended up going granary-settler instead, deliberately delaying my growth to size 3 slightly to time it for right after the granary was completed instead of two turns before. In the meantime, by the time my worker finished mining and roading the hill (definitely not a quick operation), my scout had finished exploring to the east and backtracked to discover fresh water, so my worker started roading toward it. I founded my second city in 2310 BC and will be ready to found my third next turn. (My third city's positioning is designed to open up three additional desert tiles for eventual use by the second; otherwise, I'd only have one desert tile the city can work. Unfortunately, I won't have a tile irrigated for the third city until three turns after the city is founded.)

In regard to technology, I started off researching Alphabet at maximum. Then when I met the Scandanavians, I traded Masonry for the rest of the needed Alphabet research plus gold. At that point, I started researching Writing at full speed. Later, I was able ot trade Masonry plus just a little gold to the Mongols for Bronze Working and Warrior Code. Unfortunately, the Mongols and Hittites have beaten me to Writing, which puts me in a tough position.

The irrigation situation in this game is interesting, having to found a city on a hill tile in order to irrigate through the city in order to get water to the starting area. For someone who isn't aware of that quirk of C3C's rules, that could be a problem.

Note that the builds indicated on the map below are tentative. I'll likely change the capital to a barracks before I start cranking out units (in between settlers and workers), and there's a good chance I'll change Tiwanaku to go either granary or worker-granary as well, but I haven't made a final decision yet.

[nbarclay]

With how bad the starting area is in this game, it seems like players are forced to choose between REXing and pillaging, with little real potential to do both at once. This is a vastly harder game to use pillaging effectively in than the "Testing the Jaguar Warrior" game (where Aeson put on his magnificent show) was, and I'll be interested to see whether anyone can use pillaging effectively without having an AI that isn't a victim of early pillaging pull way ahead. (Even with my pure focus on REXing thus far, I'm behind all three of the nearby AIs at least for the moment.) One thing's for sure: I'm glad I didn't try this game on demigod!

Nathan

[Aeson]

I tried my first run at this game on Sid, mistakingly thinking that Alexman included it as a 'possible' option to play.

I moved the Worker onto the Hill, saw nothing. Moved the Scout 88, saw the Whale, and moved the Settler 7 to go build a city on the Forest. I also went with a Granary right off. Worker started mining the Sugar Hill for when borders would expand.

It wasn't very long before I figured it was a lost cause on Sid. The AI start locations are too much better than the player's, too distant to harrass early enough, no good enough city site for a shot at the GL without an SGL, and the Vikings... No way to guard that peninsula against Beserkers, so you are going to be at their mercy the entire game.

Will try the same approach on Deity.

[jim_steer]

AU503 - Emperor

Started off pretty much the same as Nathan, prioritising irrigating up to my capital. After promising the soul of my first born to the dark one I was rewarded with a settler from the one and only hut I popped. I built a city on the hill next to the lake and used its meager production to build 10 turn workers. Judging by the starting terrain I am going to need a lot of workers to stand any chance of keeping in touch with the AI.

I soon met the Mongols who seem to have popped at least one city/settler and already had quite a large tech lead over me, looks like this is going to be a tough game
Contact was soon gained with both the Hittites and the Scandinavians, I was lucky enough to get contact with the Scandinavians before anyone else and was able to use this to tech trade my way to parity with both them and the Hittites.

Managed to do another uber tech trade this turn gaining IW, WC, Wheel and Writing. The Mongols also have Mysticism and HBR, they are shaping up to be a real KAI.

[alexman]

Originally posted by nbarclay
With how bad the starting area is in this game, it seems like players are forced to choose between REXing and pillaging, with little real potential to do both at once.

A choice? Of all things, it's kind of strange to hear a complaint about having to make a choice. I feel that the AU will not teach you as much as it could if you impose artificial restrictions like "use your Chasquis for pillaging". Instead, I tried to pick a map that makes Chasqui harassment a viable alternative to outright REXing.

This map was chosen because your neighbors' starts are better than yours, so you will have lots of trouble if you try to follow the usual strategy of out-REXing your opponents until you are ready to overwhelm them with your superior economy. In my test game (Emperor, where I thought most would play), I built three Chasquis off the bat and sent them south. They found the Mongols, captured both of their workers, and pillaged their improvements. Then I focused on building Settlers and Workers, while the Mongols were chasing my three Chasquis around their territory. It was great.

Anyway, I realize that some people like to follow one strategy in all of their games and expect it to work, but I also know that there are players who like to experience a different type of game now and then.

By the way, this map was mostly a product of the random map generator. I actually had to improve the human starting area to give players a chance!

[jim_steer]

Originally posted by alexman
I actually had to improve the human starting area to give players a chance!

Here was me thinking starts didn't get much worse! Guess I have become weak in always selecting a resonable start.

Hmm I think I will try a quick replay with a lot more emphasis on pillaging, though I am extremely sceptical pillaging will pay off in the long run though.

[Conqueror]

Originally posted by alexman
In my test game (Emperor, where I thought most would play), I built three Chasquis off the bat and sent them south. They found the Mongols, captured both of their workers, and pillaged their improvements. Then I focused on building Settlers and Workers, while the Mongols were chasing my three Chasquis around their territory. It was great.

I did roughly just that ; played on Emperor level w AU mod, starting scout explored NE, contacted Vike warrior there over water, built 2 Chasquis who headed south with the regular scout.

Captured 2 mongol workers, pillaged 2 tiles of their improvement, attacked and destroyed mongol city of Kazan, triggering my GA at 2630 BC, got 45 gold and Ta-Tu in negotiations. This pretty much slowed the Mongols start.

After this, i used the city of Ta-Tu as a research facility (scientist) helping my 100 % research, building more Chasqui there and rushing spear/archer/Chasqui whenever Ta-Tu hit size 2. These units (espesially the Chasquis) proved to be very useful later... but more about that on proper thread

I decided not to even try to get Philosophy first and started to research towards Monarchy at 100% speed. CB -> Mystic -> Poly. Did not benefit much so far, because Hittities had Mysticism one turn before me.

Set up a city north SW of the fish there, which is just about to complete its temple build, and after that start prebuild on GL/SoZ.

Did plan to build my 3rd city near the lake to draw irrigation from there, just needed to set up the prebuild city first. Settler for 3rd city is completing in 1 turn.

Originally posted by alexman
By the way, this map was mostly a product of the random map generator. I actually had to improve the human starting area to give players a chance!

Great map I love rough starts and scarce resources.

I'll attach image after i have booted my PC (sometime in this week ). Printscreen key never works when i have certain P2P program on-line.

[Conqueror]

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alexman

A choice? Of all things, it's kind of strange to hear a complaint about having to make a choice. I feel that the AU will not teach you as much as it could if you impose artificial restrictions like "use your Chasquis for pillaging". Instead, I tried to pick a map that makes Chasqui harassment a viable alternative to outright REXing.

I'm going to respond to this in the DAR 2 thread, since there's less risk of creating a spoiler effect there.

[jshelr]

We have a bad feeling about crossing the desert only to find mountainous jungles. So, in order to get on record and force ourselves into continuing, here is our "start." Just remember Alexman, we know where you live.

[jshelr]

So, we're on our way south to pillage and plunder when we pop this useless city right by the Mongols. LoL. Maybe when we start pillaging the Mongols will get distracted by this juicy target of opportunity.

It was possible to trade Masonry for all available techs as soon as two neighboring civs were met.

[jshelr]

The first liberation of the oppressed Mongol working class occurred shortly thereafter. These CS units are terrific and fun. (There are two slaves in that "stack," he he....)

A few turns later, with water from the start location, the desert is beginning to bloom. All the Mongol improvements were pillaged and no workers were in sight to capture. Time to settle down into ambush mode unless I can get the Mongols to give up a tech for peace. If they will, we will continue on with the Hittites.

[nbarclay]

Conqueror, what was the battle for Kazan like? I'm curious about what the odds were.

[jshelr]

Good question. Never even occurred to me to try to attack a city.