AU 502 Teaser

[Rhothaerill]

In the meantime we'll just all abuse Ducki since it naturally has to be his fault that the mod isn't finished for him to use in setting up the game.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Already?! Dang - no 501 for me...

[Ouro_827]

Yeah! A Celts scenario! They're one of my favorites, because they were the first Civ I used to step up the difficulty with.. up to either Monarch or Emporer... and actually won... I currently have a Pangea game going with them where I'm desperatly trying to get someone to help Scandenavia kill my neighbors the Dutch... the reigning superpower...

Starting plan for this course would be build two warriors, start on a settler, then after one done, shift to granary...

[nbarclay]

The problem with letting the capital grow to sizes five and six is that it puts you more than a city behind where you could be in your REXing curve. That's okay once you've REXed far enough that new cities are highly corrupt and therefore of relatively marginal value in helping with further REXing, but it's not such a good thing early.

[ducki]

Minimap

As promised. Looks like I was off a bit on my guesstimate.

[ZargonX]

The middle of the world, eh? Well, always better to start at the center and grow outward

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by ZargonX
The middle of the world, eh? Well, always better to start at the center and grow outward

Or get attacked by all the civs around you. MZO Boot Camp 2 was like that. You play as the Romans in the center of a continent with four other civs in quick striking distance. That one was touch and go for a while.

[nbarclay]

Is this a Continents, Archipelago, or Pangea map?

[Aeson]

I saw the Oasis before my first post (That is an Oasis isn't it? I'm not sure with that graphics set), but didn't realize it meant we get +4 food in the city if we want. Still forget about them as bonus food resources...

I've also noticed in C3C you don't always get the highest production tile when growing with +3 food. IIRC 2.1.2 is prefered over 1.2.1 with +3. Definitely 2.1.1 is prefered over 1.2.0 with +3, while 1.2.1 being prefered over 2.1.1 with the same food surplus. This is something to keep in mind as it changes build queues from what they could have been in Civ/PtW.

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You could drop to 3 turn growth with a Granary. Your food intake in that case is a relative 6.67 (20 food in 3 turns). If you let it sit at 5 turn growth instead and get the extra city your overall food intake is +6 per turn.

It's closer than that because you can get the Settler out and found the next city before the Granary comes online. Then both your cities have ~7 turns of production towards a Granary or the next Settler. So actually you have a little more than a Settler (half complete in each city, mostly complete in the +4 city), or 1.5 food per turn to add to your +6. You'll be behind on population and production like this, but a little ahead on overall food production and commerce. City centers and the free laborer for extra cities is really what gives your commerce a boost early on when you are relying on the luxury slider for happiness.

The Granary build is best to go with a Worker after the Granary. Itried it before and with +3 food to start and nothing to Irrigate right off it's just not worth it.

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I want to move the Settler 8 to build, but first want to check that I won't be missing out on a bonus food source to the W by doing so. Assumed no bonus food source W. I doubt we are being given a +5 food capitol.

This frees up the most room on the river, keeps the 3 potential 2.2 tiles in range, uncovers the most black tiles, gives us access to an Oasis for +4, and if ducki has miscalculated and given us a +5 city I'm betting it's due to another Oasis. Only downside to this city placement is there is only 1 Forest in range and chops at XX where X is a cardinal direction no longer add shields to the city. Luckily mines on Plains can work just as well.

1: Worker 1 move 4. Settler 1 move 8.
2: Worker 1 move 8. Settler 1 build city. Built Granary.
3: 0:0 Worker 1 Irrigate Desert. City has opened up an irrigation path. City food 0, production 0. Laborer to Sugar.
4: 3:2
5: 6:4
6: 9:6
7: 12:8 Irrigation done. Worker Road Desert. Worker 1 move to Oasis.
8: 15:0 Warrior is done. Start Granary. Laborer to Forest.
9: 17:3 Laborer to Sugar.
10: Size 2 0:7 Laborers to Sugar, River BG.
11: 3:10 Road Desert done. Worker 1 move to Oasis.
12: 6:13 Worker 1 Irrigate Oasis.
13: 9:17
14: 12:20 Laborers to Sugar, Forest.
15: 14:24 Laborers to Sugar, River BG.
16: 17:27
17: Size 3 0:30 Irrigate Oasis done. Worker 1 move to Sugar. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG.
18: 4:34 Worker 1 Mine Sugar.
19: 8:38
20: 12:42
21: 16:46
22: Size 4 0:52 Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, River G.
23: 4:56
24: 8:0 Granary done. Build Worker.
25: 12:5 Mine Sugar done. Worker 1 Road Sugar.
26: Size 3 16:0 Worker 2 done. Worker 2 move to River BG. Build Settler. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG.
27: Size 4 10:7 Worker 2 Mine River BG. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, Forest
28: 12:14 Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, River G.
29: 16:19 Road Sugar done. Worker 1 move to BG.
30: Size 5 10:26 Worker 1 Road BG. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, River G, River G.
31: Size 3 14:0 Settler complete. Start Warrior. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG.
32: 16:5
33: Size 4 10:0 Warrior complete. Start Settler. Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, Forest.
34: 12:8 Mine River BG complete. Worker 1 (start building road to city sites) Road BG complete. Worker 2 (same) Laborers to Oasis, Sugar, River BG, BG.
35: 16:15
36: Size 5 10:24 Laborers to Oasis**, Sugar*, River BG*, BG, Forest*
37: Size 3 12(14):0 Settler complete. Start...

* These tiles can be given to the second city if in range and needed, swapping for G.
** Oasis can be given to the second city if in range. Though it's not likely to build that way unless there are more Oasis out there.

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The other option is a Settler right off. With +4 food this isn't as good an option, but still pretty close.

1: Worker 1 move 4. Settler 8.
2: Worker 1 move 8. Settler 1 found city. Start Warrior.
3: 0:0 Worker 1 Irrigate Desert. Laborer to Sugar.
4: 3:2
5: 6:4
6: 9:6
7: 12:8 Irrigation done. Worker Road Desert. Worker 1 move to Oasis.
8: 15:0 Warrior is done. Start Settler. Laborer to Forest.
9: 17:3 Laborer to Sugar.
10: Size 2 0:7 Laborers to Sugar, River BG.
11: 3:10 Road Desert done. Worker 1 move to Oasis.
12: 6:13 Worker 1 Irrigate Oasis.
13: 9:17
14: 12:20 Laborers to Sugar, Forest.
15: 14:24 Laborers to Sugar, River BG.
16: 17:27
17: Size 1 0:0 Irrigate Oasis done. Settler done. Worker 1 move to Sugar. Laborer to Oasis

Now we have a Settler at turn 17 and our capitol is size 1 with + 4 food per turn. Grows in 5.

[ducki]

That is an Oasis isn't it? I'm not sure with that graphics set

I'm not sure, I'd have to fire it up.
I'm terribly sorry. I forget that I use the watercolor graphics and never considered making maps before.
My mistake. I'll look into reverting my graphics to stock and doing another screengrab.

Edit: Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I can't seem to get either the save or the biq to no have those graphics even replacing my terrain folder with my backup. /sigh

[alexman]

Initially I thouht that tile 877 from the start was coast/lake, but even with Snoopy's graphics, it definitely looks like oasis now that I tried to recreate the start with the editor. Cool. That changes everything. Thanks Aeson!

[nbarclay]

Aeson, your calculations are a bit off. The city would be at 0:0 the turn it is built, not the turn after that. Following your technique with some adjustments, I get:

1: Worker 1 move 4. Settler 1 move 8.
2: Worker 1 move 8. Settler 1 build city (now at 0:0 food/production). Start work on warrior; laborer to sugar.
3: 3:2 Worker 1 Irrigate Desert. City has opened up an irrigation path..
4: 6:4
5: 9:6
6: 12:8
7: 15:0 Warrior is done. Start granary. Irrigation is done. Move worker to oasis. Move laborer to forest.

(Moving the worker to the oasis rather than roading at this point is a departure from Aeson's sequence. With the real city growth pattern, this loses a worker turn when we have to go back to road the desert but it gains us a turn on city growth.)

8: 17:3 Labrer to Sugar. Worker starts irrigating oasis.
9: Size 2 0:7 Laborers to Sugar, irrigated desert.

(Aeson had us working a bonus grassland here, but that's not in range until our borders expand. The irrigated desert gives the same food and production, but doesn't give us gold.)

10: 3:10
11: 6:13
12: 9:16 Borders expand. Irrigation of oasis is completed; start road. Laborers work oasis and forest.
13: 12:20: Laborers to oasis and sugar.
14: 16:23
15: Size 3: 0:28: Road on oasis completed. Worker to irrigated desert. Laborers to oasis, sugar, and river BG.
16: 4:32: Start road.
17: 8:36
18: 12:40
19: 16:44: Road complete. Move worker to river BG.
20: Size 4: 0:50: Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, and irrigated desert. Start mine.
21: 4:55
22: 8:0: Granary complete. Start worker.
23: 12:5
24: Size 3: 16:0: Worker complete. Start settler. Worker 2 moves to sugar. Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG.
25: Size 4: 0:6: Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, forest. Worker 2 starts mining.
26: 3:13: Worker 1 completes mine, starts road.
27: 6:20: Laborers to oasis, irrigated desert, river BG, sugear.
28: Size 5: 0:28: Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, river grassland, irrigated desrt. (We don't need the extra shields from working the second BG, and working a river tile gives us an extra gold.)
29: Size 3: 4:0: Settler complete. Start another settler. Worker 1 completes road; further actions depend on what our exploring warrior found out. Laborers work mined river BG, oasis, forest.
30: 7:6: Laborers to oasis, mined river BG, sugar.
31: Size 4: 0:14: Worker 2 finished mine, starts road. Laborers to oasis, mined river BG, mined sugar, forest.
32: 3:22
33: Size 2: 6:0: Settler complete. Laborers to oasis and sugar.

Note that with the granary and second settler, I had only exactly enough shields. This timeline works if the new laborers land on the river forest the way they did in my test scenario, but not otherwise.

By the way, thanks and a big for tipping us off to the oasis!

[Aeson]

Ack! Maybe I was thinking of waiting an extra turn to found my city... er... maybe not.

The Granary up 2 turns earlier is nice, right in line with Arrian's (without a Warrior) given the move at the start. I tried my first run through with the Worker not roading to the Oasis, but that extra turn 'lost' at the start must have been what made it seem less worthwhile.

As long as there isn't an available 2.1.2 tile for the new laborer it should be assigned to the Forest.

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No problem on the graphics ducki. It's fun to have something less obvious to wonder about instead of seeing a pixel in the dark and knowing just what's on the tile. (the things some people spot in the GOTM pregame threads is truely scary... a single pixel of a wheat on a SW plains tile for instance)

[nbarclay]

I decided to try a Warrior-worker-granary variant and see how it would work out. It proved to be an interesting alternative.

1: Worker move 4. Settler move 8.
2: Worker move 8. Settler build city (now at 0:0 food/production). Start work on warrior; laborer to sugar.
3: 3:2 Worker 1 Irrigate Desert. City has opened up an irrigation path..
4: 6:4
5: 9:6
6: 12:8
7: 15:0 Warrior is done. Start worker. Irrigation is done. Move worker to oasis. Move laborer to forest.
8: 17:3 Labrer to Sugar. Worker starts irrigating oasis.
9: Size 2 0:7 Laborers to Sugar, forest. (This appears wasteful in that it sacrifices food for a shield we don't need, but it gives us an extra gold and the waste won't matter.)
10: Size 1: 2:0 Worker 2 complete. Moves to sugar. Laborer to sugar.
11: 5:2 Worker 2 starts mining.
12: 8:4 Borders expand. Irrigation of oasis is completed; start road. Laborer works oasis.
13: 12:6
14: 16:8
15: Size 2: 0:12: Road on oasis completed. Worker 1 to irrigated desert. Laborers to oasis and sugar.
16: 4:15: Worker 1 Starts road.
17: 8:19: Worker 2 finished mining, starts road. (The road won't help commerce, but it will help later movement of units.)
18: 12:23
19: 16:27: Worker 1 completes road, moves to river BG.
20: Size 3: 0:33: Laborers to oasis, sugar, and forest. Worker 1 starts mine. Worker 2 finishes road and moves to second bonus BG. (We're sacrificing growth for production by working the forest tile in order to complete our granary a turn sooner and grow a turn later. That puts us ahead on the growth curve because we benefit from the granary when we grow.)
21: 3:39: Worker 2 starts road.
22: 6:45: Laborers to oasis, sugar, and river BG.
23: 10:50
24: 14:55: Worker 2 finishes road, starts mine (or could move to start another road if the as-yet-unseen terrain indicates that that would be better).
25: 18:0 Granary complete. Start settler.
26: Size 4: 0:8: Worker 1 finishes mine, starts road. Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, and forest.
27: 3:16: Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG, other BG. (It doesn't actually matter whether we make the laborer move this turn or next turn.)
28: 7:23
29: Size 3: 0:0: Settler complete; start another settler. Laborers to oasis, sugar, river BG. Worker 1 completes road; further actions depend on what our exploring warrior found out.
30: 4:6: Worker 2 finishes mine, moves to next tile to be worked. (I won't specify further worker actions.)
31: 8:12
32: Size 4: 0:20: Laborers to oasis and three mined tiles.
33: 4:28
34: Size 2: 8:0: Settler complete.

This approach produces the first settler at the same time as the previous approach but puts the capital (for practical purposes) exactly a turn behind in growth and production at the point when the second settler is finished. In exchange, it provides fourteen extra turns' work from our second worker, which should help either in getting the second or third city up to speed more quickly (whichever the second worker ends up being assigned to). I'll have to think some more about whether that tradeoff is a good one.

[vmxa1]

I really enjoyed the new teaser approach. Very interesting to read.