AU mod: The Conquistador

[ducki]

Also Spain should build Knights sometimes, even after Astronomy. Otherwise we are reducing strategic options, which is the opposite of what we want.

I think you may have taken my AU Course suggestion to mean I think Conqs should replace Knights - I don't. I do feel that would be an interesting Course requirement to test any changes and see how useful they can be. Med Inf would still, in the course I outlined, probably be the preferred method of taking cities. Just prohibiting Knights for a course did not, does not, will not suggest I think the units are or should be analogs.

the combination of two moves and ATAR allows conquistadors to strike deeper than even cavalry can

So ATAR means that each movement point equals three tiles even in enemy territory? I assumed "as roads" would have the same limitations as normal roads. Interesting.

Another thought might be 3-3-2 + Enslave + (cost reduction OR useful upgrade path). The added defense giving a bit more staying power behind enemy lines and still leaves knights as more cost effective for general use.

Pretty much any of these non-knight-level suggestions would be interesting enough to try at least once.

[edit: or maybe give it the ability to Settle towns(naturally costing pop to build) or Build Forts? Mostly a fallback idea if nothing else is acceptible to the panel]

[nbarclay]

I'm not positive about ATAR allowing faster movement through enemy territory; I'm going based on some stuff I've read. (I don't think I've ever played Spain yet.) If someone with first-hand experience could confirm that (or tell us I'm wrong), it would be nice.

[Nor Me]

ATAR definately gives faster movement through enemy territory (and explorers can pillage as well.)

Something to remember about the conquistador is that it doesn't stop being useful in taking empty cities. With the changes to bombers and cruise missiles, it can do this even against the AI later on. In a nuclear arms race, it could be feasible and sensible for Spain to take all an AIs main cities on turn one of a war which may well be much more difficult for other civs.

Not that the ability to do that needs to be preserved.

If we're having a cavalry upgrade then Spain should be able to build the explorer so that they at least don't lose the pillage ability.

I think I've suggested 3/3/2 cost 60 before and tried to convince player1 that 50 shields would be unbalancing.

[pauli]

Something to remember about the conquistador is that it doesn't stop being useful in taking empty cities. With the changes to bombers and cruise missiles, it can do this even against the AI later on. In a nuclear arms race, it could be feasible and sensible for Spain to take all an AIs main cities on turn one of a war which may well be much more difficult for other civs.

what is this, 'nuke and trot?'

what about making the conquistador into a straight up replacement knight? or are there enough of those already?

[Risa]

It seems that the enslave ability is favored by many people. The next question is: enslave to what? Worker, warrior, or another conquistador?

[pauli]

sgl! sgl!

er, i mean worker.

/me whistles

[Rellin]

Definately not another Conquistador, warrior would need an upgrade to be worth anything, but worker would be most realistic, and worth the most to the person doing the enslaving, plus it would be vunerable on its way back to friendly territory if the Conquistador is out and about enslaving without armed troops, which might well be the case given its movement abilities.

[Risa]

I would definately not accept worker if conquistador were an ancient unit, because of barb-farming. And I still don't like the general idea of gaining pop-point by combat, even it's out of ancient times. That's why I suggest warrior.

[Alexander's Horse]

I like the conquistador.

[Rellin]

Yeah Warrior is most reasonable, but slaves are so cool.

[nbarclay]

Enslaving as conquistadors would be both ahistorical and overpowering. I'm a bit rusty on my history of that period, but I'm pretty sure the Spanish didn't do much in the way of arming natives and using them as troops. And the ability to get free conquistadors would tend to be a bit too powerful, especially if conquistadors are used mainly to attack units with a defense of two or less (and thus can very possibly gain more numbers through enslavement than they lose in combat).

[pauli]

...but enslaving the local population as workers was very much historical.

hmm... what would REALLY be neat is the ability to cause plague in enemy cities... but i don't think that's possible :/

[Rellin]

From Encarta:Link

The conquistadors came from areas of Spain where fighting was a way of life. The wars against Muslims in Spain had lasted for centuries, and clashes between rival clans were common. These men were accustomed to achieving their goals of fame and fortune through military endeavor. By taking treasure, territory, and subjects for their country, they won recognition from the king. Many explorers also felt it was their moral responsibility to convert people to Christianity.

The European explorers of Central and South America encountered native civilizations far richer and more sophisticated than the Caribbean cultures—for example, the Maya and Aztec peoples in Mexico and the Incas in Peru. They came upon technology allowing relatively abundant crops and encountered forms of empire where city-states dominated smaller satellite communities. Their conquests brought dramatic changes to both the Americas and Spain. The conquistadors and colonizers introduced European culture and religion to the Americas, while Spain gained enormous wealth from the spoils of its conquests and from silver and gold mines in the newly conquered lands.

Enslave would be the most historically accurate, as would ability to make a colony. Shame we can't make them enslave but only get some gold in return.

[nbarclay]

By the time conquistadors are available, there are typically size 12 cities that have excess food capacity and can turn out an occasional worker and be back to size 12 the next turn. So why use a conquistador to built a colony when a worker can do it a lot more cheaply? I can't see a "build colony" ability for the conquistador being used enough to make it worth the clutter in the list of rules changes in the mod.

[Rellin]

I agree, just was pointing out what was historically accurate.

I like your original post a few back suggesting, 60 shield, enslave, calvary upgrade, same a/d/m as stock.

I'd say enslave worker isn't really going to be all that powerful at this stage in the game either and would be most accurate.