AU mod: The Statue of Zeus

[alexman]

It would also help the AI who doesn't know to try and trade for Ivory, or not to trade it away before building the Wonder.

The only problem I see is that it increases the randomness of this powerful Wonder even more. If you start next to Ivory, you have basically won the game, as it's not likely that someone else has also started next to Ivory. At least with stock rules the AI might have a chance to get Ivory later by expanding, and then get the Wonder in a core city by a cascade, even if it doesn't start right next to Ivory.

[alexman]

We have the following proposals:

A) No change
B) Require Ivory within city radius.
C) Increase cost to 300, unit interval to 8 turns.
D) Increase cost to 300, remove bonus HP.
E) Reduce attack factor to 2.
F) Move to Construction

Does anybody have any other specific proposal for consideration? If so, I will add it to the above list. The panel will then vote on these proposals by putting them in their order of preference. Voting will begin in one week from now.

[lockstep]

ducki made the proposal to move the SoZ to Construction. This would be rather low on my list of preferred changes, but still higher than 'SoZ requires ivory within city radius'.

[ducki]

The particular tech wasn't as important, if I recall what I was thinking about, as putting the avalailability of the wonder on the cusp of the middle ages. Construction, Currency, Republic - anything that give the minimum time for the ACavs to produce. At lower levels, the player will often get to any desirable tech first anyway. At the higher levels, the farther away you put the tech, I think the better chance the AI has.
Additionally, being so close to Feudalism means the chances of overrunning a foe with woefully inadequate defenses is a bit slimmer(though still possible by luck of the draw).

Construction already has a wonder that's worth building, I only suggested it because Currency and Statue of Zeus just don't mesh well, verbally. Then again, neither does Math and SoZ.



(Here's a thought - instead of gathering _all_ proposed ideas, gather only those that have been "seconded" by someone other than the originator? Like lockstep's post would be considered seconding my "move the wonder to a later tech" proposal. Just an idea to trim down the number of single-supporter, no-votes ideas that might potentially get on the ballot.)

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alexman
Example of a difficult vote:
Four proposals, A, B, C, D
Five voters 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
A and B are similar and can be considered almost the same proposal.
C, D are unique.

Voter 1: ABCD
Voter 2: BACD
Voter 3: CBAD
Voter 4: DABC
Voter 5: CBAD

Note that A and B are always next to each other, as they are almost the same idea.

Under nbarclays system, C would win, even though more panelists prefer the A/B proposal over C.

Actually, my proposal doesn't cope with this situation at all. C can't be declared the winner becuase it didn't get a majority, meaning that there needs to be a runoff election between it and whatever proposal or proposals are in second place. But the fact that all the others are tied for second makes it impossible to reduce the number of options for a runoff election. In such an event, a more complex approach would be needed to narrow down the field.

[ducki]

As promised, here's a sav to see how painful it is to have a neighbor that has the AC and has not been at war yet.
Aztec built SoZ in 290 BC and it's now 340 AD. I don't know how many turns that is, but he's been completely undisturbed for that entire time, though ACs are about all he's got as he has no Iron.
You are one turn from Chivalry, though the insane price of 120g for a Horse->Samurai upgrade means you have to be picky. Unfortunately, I already upgraded the few spears I had to Pikes, so if you want spears, I can get an even older save out.

Oh yeah, please, no feedback about this particular game in this thread - I know it's not well-played/developed - it's sole purpose is to see what it's like to be on the receiving end of AC at around Chivalry. Fortunately, this autosave lets us see pre-chivalry and post-chivalry, though Samurai are rather stronger on defense than knights, but oh well.

It's Monarch level, Byzantines are insane with their Dromon/Settler chains and Azteca are the only folks cranky with us. Lots of RoP and Lux deals, so hopefully we can concentrate solely on the Aztec Horde for testing.

Or not, as you like.

Edit: Just went in with what I had on hand and all I can say is "Ouchies!" I lost all of my first set of Samurai that were in the south and most of a second batch. By turn 2 of the war, I'm having serious WW problems and by turn 3 riots and shutdowns in native cities. Those ACs are tough. And that's with Vet and Elite Sams.
Just Ouch!

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by alexman
We have the following proposals:

A) No change
B) Require Ivory within city radius.
C) Increase cost to 300, unit interval to 8 turns.
D) Increase cost to 300, remove bonus HP.
E) Reduce attack factor to 2.
F) Move to Construction

Well if anyone takes any notice, the idea I would prefer (and thus second) is increasing the cost and removing the bonus hp, increase cost and decreas frequency or no change.

And I thought you already needed Ivory in the city radius.... guess I've just been lucky and started on the SoZ before my road network got too far, eh?

I don't know if it's worth as much as just taking Horses from someone if it is dropped to 2 attack, and by Construction is getting a little late, especially since that tech takes longer to get than all other necessary Ancient techs. If I didn't have Horse-type units before then there would have been a number of games I would have just been overrun too early. The SoZ always comes dead at the right time for me, when it does appear as an option.

[ducki]

by Construction is getting a little late

Not as late as it would seem.
Go grab the 380AD save from the "Balancing the Governments" thread that I posted, delcare war with your 10 or so Samurai against the Ironless, SoZ-having Aztec and go on the offensive (I went at the capitol and the two northern towns - the forces are already split for this).

These ACs are much tougher than advertised. I really thought that MI and Samurai would do a ginsu knife impression on them, but not so.

These guys with 3-2-2- and 5hps as vets are much tougher than their stats suggest, thus are useful even into the Musket-phase(Samurai have 4 defense and dropped too easily to these dudes.)

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by ducki
These guys with 3-2-2- and 5hps as vets are much tougher than their stats suggest, thus are useful even into the Musket-phase(Samurai have 4 defense and dropped too easily to these dudes.)

ducki, it all depends on WHY you found them such trouble. A 2 defense unit is still just that - 2 defense, and so the only thing that they have as a defensive advantage over Spearsis that they have the movement to get themselves to a better defensive position.

You could well have just had a particular run of luck.

[ducki]

Their defense wasn't the big surprise, it was offense, and the regularity with which they were able to take out my Vet Samurai. I think the extra HP combined with mobility makes them far stronger than the numbers suggest. Couple that with the inherent advantages of them being the "defender" nation - 6 moves on roads, healing, ending turns in cities, etc., and in the hands of a defending AI, these ACs perform surprisingly well. Stopping cold an attack of ~10 Vet Samurai only bent on taking a single city was surprising enough, but to follow that up by defeating a combined arms force of 10 more Vet Samurai and 3-4 pikes and 3-4 Med. Inf. (my second wave) tells me it's more than just bad luck. I also lost half a dozen swords/MI in my own borders stopping their attempts at taking slaves/border towns. All this from however many AC were created between 290BC and 380AD.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be that way, I'm just reportiing what happened in my (not so out-of-character) test. Casualties were much higher than expected, so I'm more inclined to think the either the Unit needs a minor tone-down or the total number of produced Units should be adjusted downward. I just don't think the AC should be able to rout ~10 Samurai quite that handily.

[donZappo]

Heh... thanks for that good butt-kicking in your test game, Ducki. I don't know if I learned anything I didn't already know, though! "Wow, Ancient Cavalry are bad in large numbers!" At least it helps to emphasis the point that something has to be done in order to tone these guys down. I'm thinking that (C) might be enough to slow them down, although that extra hitpoint could certainly be removed as well.

-donZappo

[ducki]

Ahh, I'm glad someone else tried it out. Thanks dZ!

[Dominae]

Here's my ranking (despite my dislike of the ranking system!):

1. D, Increase cost to 300, remove bonus HP.
2. C, Increase cost to 300, unit interval to 8 turns.
3. E, Reduce attack factor to 2.
4. A, No change.
5. F, Move to Construction.
6. B, Require Ivory within city radius.


Dominae

[alexman]

OK, it's Friday in much of the World, so let's vote.

My order of preference:
E) Reduce attack factor to 2.
C) Increase cost to 300, unit interval to 8 turns.
D) Increase cost to 300, remove bonus HP.
A) No change
B) Require Ivory within city radius.
F) Move to Construction

I prefer E over C and D because it changes just one thing instead of two.

[lockstep]

(best)

D) Increase cost to 300, remove bonus HP
C) Increase cost to 300, unit interval to 8 turns
A) No change
F) Move to Construction
E) Reduce attack factor to 2
B) Require Ivory within city radius

(worst)