AU mod: The Statue of Zeus

[bongo]

Are you sure the cost of the wonder and the frequency of which the ACs get built cannot be made map-dependant?

[MrWhereItsAt]

bongo, your post made me go and check.

Originally posted by geniemalin
IMHO part of the problem is that the number is fixed (1 per 5 turns) no matter what the map size.

Turns out this is correct, but we can change the frequency of which an ACav appears for ALL maps.

[bongo]

You would need different mods for different map sizes then.

Guess it would work but it will be messy

[MrWhereItsAt]

What would be so wrong with just reducing the frequency for all maps?

[sabrewolf]

different map sizes always makes a problem for balance.
- on gigantic maps, you can outREX even at deity.
- pyramis, ToA, GW, sun tzu's, hoover, etc. are more powerful the larger the land is.
- expansionist, commercial and scientific gain power on larger maps overproportionally.
- unit-spawning wonders (SoZ, KT) in fact are more powerful on smaller maps.

so i don't think we should tamper with different appearance ratios for different world sizes.... and if we do, then everything should be balanced out.

[Arnelos]

Just played a game at emperor level before I left on my trip where I had NO horse, NO iron, and the GREEKS next to me had the only sources of ivory. I knew I was sunk unless I took over the Greeks (who didn't have iron or horses, either, btw...) and got their sources of ivory to build the SoZ.

Playing Carthage (thank god!) I built up a force of Numidian Mercenaries and a very tall stack of catapults (without which NMs versus Hoplites would have been horribly ugly) and took over the Greeks. They finished the SoZ in Athens while I was invading, but I was lucky to take the city ONE TURN before they produced their first Ancient Cav. I started pumping out ancient cav myself. When I then took over the Egyptians and Romans, both with iron and horses, the game was well in hand.

Starting on the same continent with Greece and Rome and no sources of iron, horses, or ivory, even playing Carthage I would have had a rather significant problem by mid-game if I didn't claim that Greek ivory and the SoZ.

As others have argued, the ivory-based SoZ can offer a second chance when you realize there's no iron and no horses anywhere in sight, but at least ivory is.

Playing Carthage certainly helped in my game (even hoplites don't stand against stacks of 18 NMs and 12 catapults ), but the long-term situation might still have looked bleak if I didn't have the SoZ to then keep my military strong while the Romans and their iron were conquering everything else on the continent.

[Brundlefly]

I've played a game before where an AI civ is building SoZ without having Ivory. There is no way they could be trading for it either. Have you seen this?

[sabrewolf]

post the save, maybe someone will discover, why...

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arnelos
As others have argued, the ivory-based SoZ can offer a second chance when you realize there's no iron and no horses anywhere in sight, but at least ivory is.

You guys make it sound like the purpose of the Statue of Zeus is to offer Iron-less and Horse-less civs a chance to keep up in military. This is simply not the right way to look at it.

The chances that: 1) you do not have Iron, AND 2) you do not have Horses, AND 3) you start close to Ivory, are certainly very low. Actually, the chances that you do not get Iron or Horses are very low to begin with, and Ivory (being one of eight Luxury resouces) is not likely to save you that often on average.

Sure, it makes for a great story when the stars align in this way, but then it also makes for a great story when you get a SGL upon researching Mysticism, and use it to rush the Pyramids thirty turns into the game.

What is far more likely is that: 1) you and your opponents have Iron, AND 2) you and your opponents have Horses. Then the addition of Ivory throws the balance of power way out of whack, because suddenly one civ can build a strong military Wonder and the others cannot. What decides this is the RNG when it places the starting locations and assigns them to various civs.

IMO such a power shift should not be up to the RNG, but to good gameplay.


Dominae

[Stuie]

Thinking about it, I don't see why the ivory requirement is such a big deal. Typically there are multiple, dispersed sources of a luxury item throughout a continent/island/pangea. That means most Civs on a continent will probably have access (or can "obtain" access) to at least one source of ivory. No worse than trying to grab iron or horses. Thus all of the Civs on one continent will have a shot at competing for SoZ.

By the time contact is made with other land masses, chances are you are well into the Middle Ages and Ancient Cavalry aren't going to make that big of a difference.

I'm for leaving it alone.

[sabrewolf]

the ideal situation for the SoZ would be if the ivory is between the starting location of 4 civs which all try to place their city there. if you get it then (and can defend it), it's a power shift due to good gameplay, as dominae expects it.

but - so often it's either right next to, or really near to ONE player's starting location, so there won't be a big fight about the ivory.


so IF there's a not-really-deserved power shift, then it shouldn't be too extreme... which would emphasize the every-7-turns-idea.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Stuie
Thinking about it, I don't see why the ivory requirement is such a big deal. Typically there are multiple, dispersed sources of a luxury item throughout a continent/island/pangea. That means most Civs on a continent will probably have access (or can "obtain" access) to at least one source of ivory. No worse than trying to grab iron or horses.

In my experience, luxury resources aren't as dispersed as strategic resources, and only one or two civs will have access to any given luxury.

Thus all of the Civs on one continent will have a shot at competing for SoZ.

In that case you might as well drop SoZ's ivory requirement because it doesn't make any difference. As I see it, ivory does make a difference, and makes for worse gameplay.

[bongo]

Originally posted by Dominae
The chances that: 1) you do not have Iron, AND 2) you do not have Horses, AND 3) you start close to Ivory, are certainly very low. Actually, the chances that you do not get Iron or Horses are very low to begin with, and Ivory (being one of eight Luxury resouces) is not likely to save you that often on average.

Sure, it makes for a great story when the stars align in this way, but then it also makes for a great story wh.....
Dominae

Funny you mentioned that, cause that exactly what have happened in ALL my games so far.


(well, it's more like my only game actually... )

[nbarclay]

The fact that fewer instances of each luxury are available in C3C than were in PtW means that it tends to be a bit harder to trade for a luxury, and probably also that fewer civs tend to have a given luxury within their borders on multi-civ continents. Still, it seems by no means rare for at least two civs to have access to a luxury. For example, in the Emperor game Mountain sage posted, the Sumerians and I both had ivory available. In Dominae's Chasqui Scout game, the Dutch and Mongols both had access (and a sufficiently ambitious human player could have "obtained" the Mongols' source without a major war). In my current game, England and Russia (two AIs) both had access to ivory. Thus, with ivory required, the race is always limited but often not just a matter of if you have ivory, you are guaranteed the wonder whenever you get around to building it.

Are there strategic factors involved in the ivory requirement? Definitely.

1) How does the need for ivory to build the Statue of Zeus affect the priority of scouting? If ivory is available but you don't findi it in time, an AI might beat you to it.

2) If ivory is available but not near your core, how early do you send a settler to the high-corruption area where the ivory is located to try to claim it?

3) If an AI has ivory and you don't, do you try to trade for it, fight for it, let the AI build the wonder and try to steal it, or leave matters alone and hope the AI doesn't attack you during the time when Ancient Cavalry are at their most potent?

And so on. The fact that ivory is required can add a number of strategic dimensions that would not exist if it were not required or if a more widely available resource were substituted, dimensions that are perhaps most notable in that they are different from the issues created by other wonders. With no more than we've played C3C thus far, it is far too early to write off the strategic dimensions of that requirement as uninteresting.

I'm not saying I think the ivory requirement for the Statue of Zeus (or the Statue of Zeus itself, for that matter), was a good idea. But I find the current design sufficiently interesting that I do not think eliminating the ivory requirement is justified in the AU Mod.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by bongo
Funny you mentioned that, cause that exactly what have happened in ALL my games so far.

(well, it's more like my only game actually... )

Interesting response. I feel you've done a good enough job of discounting your point of view, so I have nothing further to add.


Dominae