The Spirit of the AU Mod

[ducki]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I think the best way to get our initial version quickly (without taking the time to go through the full formal process) would be to carry over the changes we want to keep from the PtW version,
Nathan

Better yet, just let the panel vote on the old readme.
Send all 7 of them a copy of the last readme, and let them mark each line item "Now" or "Later".
Compile the list, carry over all the "Nows" for AU C3C v1.0.
All the "Laters" give us a quick reference for stuff to discuss in addition to the New items brought about by things specific to C3C. Any discussions we've already had regarding existing changes that seem controversial should automatically be "Later" - example: Military Academy.

I think there's no need for mass discussion if we go this way. We get an initial version asap and can test how things carried over while still discussing those that didn't and the new stuff.

It removes the sense of urgency in light of us getting a patch so soon.

Just a suggestion, but if getting v1.0 done quickly, I think having the panel vet the old readme is the most expedient option.

[Tall Stranger]

I tend to agree with ducki here. While I understand the desire to get the AU mod moving, I would think that the proper way to start is to include all the obvious, well-established changes first. Looking through the 1.17 readme, I notice a whole bunch of fairly obvious changes which should be made (elephants ignore movement penalties in jungle, etc.) and which are likely to be uncontroversial.

I would suggest that, for some of the very significant changes, such as major alterations to the tech tree, we should wait until the patch comes out to fix the corruption and gpt bugs, then give some people the opportunity to play with the change, either formally as an AU game or informally on their own time. As much respect as I have for the panel's instincts, I think the mod would be significantly better if it actually took into account gameplay experience in a non-buggy C3C.

[Risa]

New War Elephants are strong enough. +1 bonus hp should not be ignore.

[nbarclay]

Is there a nice, neat, clean list of known changes in C3C somewhere? I hate to think how many things like +1 hit point for war elephants and lethal see bombardment for aircraft are hidden away.

[Theseus]

Hmmm...

Nathan, you sometimes have a way of pouring gasoline onto the fire!!

(Please read the next paragraph knowing that I, sniff sniff, love you... )

My initial reaction was very similar to alexman's: EFF YOU!! It's moving fast because we took our time in selecting a very experienced panel... one that I even nominated you for! We;'re moving fast because we've gone over a lot of this ground before, and because we know the game... What makes you think I would ever be 'pressured' into a yes, anyway? That sorta feels like an insult; when have you ever seen me, or any of the other panel members, blythely accept changes? And don;t get me started on the whole "take my ball home with me" attitude!

On reflection: OK, OK, I hear ya... it's actually a different issue, that is seemingly shared by other members. If it feels too fast to you and others... then it is. Period. I respect that.

alexman, I know it's a bit of a pain, but I think Nathan, in his soemtimes prickly way , is not so wrong.

Suggestions: First, the last few posts are right... we do need to look at the sum of changes from PTW to C3C; I had no idea about WEs, and fear what other changes I don;t know. Second, it would be useful to see the issues being discussed / voted in a topped summary post. Third, I don;t think we need to re-vote everything, but we should open up the "Updating" thread to allow for calls for re-vote on specific issues, so that if someone is REALLY passionate about an already voted topic they can voice such.

And I, personally, would like to extend compliments to both alexman on getting things moving forward, and Nathan for, as always, standing by his viewpoint.

[Risa]

Unit changes from PtW to Conquests:
Worker: now airliftable;
Explorer: Navigation --> Astronomy;
Marine: 8/6/1, ZOC, 100 shields --> 12/6/1, no ZOC, 120 shields;
Paratrooper: 6/8/1, 100 shields, no upgrade --> 4/9/1, 90 shields, upgrade to Modern Paratrooper;
Warrior: now available to Aztec;
Archer: added bombard 1/0/1;
Longbowman: added bombard 2/0/1;
Catapult: upgrade to Cannon --> upgrade to Trebuchet;
Cannon: now create craters;
Artillery: now create craters;
Radar Artillery: 0/0/1, bombard 16/2/2 --> 0/0/2, bombard 16/2/3, create craters;
Cruise Missile: bombard 16/2/3 --> bombard 16/4/3, lethal sea and land bombardment, create craters, load flag;
Caravel: 1/2/3 --> 1/2/4;
Frigate: 2/2/4, bombard 2/1/2 --> 2/2/5, bombard 3/1/2, create craters;
Galleon: 60 shields --> 50 shields;
Ironclad: 4/4/4, bombard 4/1/2, 80 shields, Steam Power, no upgrade --> 5/6/3, bombard 6/1/2, 90 shields, Ironclads, upgrade to Destroyer, create craters;
Transport: 1/4/5, transport 8 --> 1/2/6, transport 6, requires escort;
Carrier: 1/8/4 --> 1/8/7, aa 1, requires escort;
Submarine: 8/4/3 --> 8/4/4, stealth attack all current ships;
Destroyer: 12/8/5 --> 12/8/8, aa 1, detect invisible, create craters;
Battleship: added aa 2, create craters;
AEGIS Cruiser: 12/10/5, bombard 4/2/2 --> 15/10/7, bombard 6/2/2, aa 3, create craters;
Nuclear Submarine: 8/4/4 --> 8/4/5, stealth attack all current ships;
Fighter: bombard 2/0/1, operational range 4 --> bombard 3/0/1, operational range 6, lethal sea bombardment, create craters;
Bomber: bombard 8/0/3, operational range 6 --> bombard 12/0/3, operational range 10, lethal sea and land bombardment, create craters;
Helicopter: transport 1 --> transport 3;
Jet Fighter: bombard 2/0/1, operational range 6 -->bombard 3/0/1, operational range 9, lethal sea bombardment, create craters;
Stealth Fighter: 0/0/1, bombard 4/0/2, operational range 8 --> 8/6/1, bombard 6/0/2, operational range 12, lethal sea and land bombardment, stealth attack all current units except Leader, Princess and all king units but Maya's Smoke-Jaguar , create craters;
Stealth Bomber: 0/0/1, bombard 8/0/3, operational range 12 --> 0/5/1, bombard 18/0/3, operational range 16, lethal sea and land bombardment, stealth attack all current units except Leader, Princess and all king units, create craters;
(Well, stealth fighter's, stealth bomber's and F-15's stealth attack don't work at the time. But I don't know what would happen when them bombard 0-defense-no-hp units if stealth attack worked. And poor Smoke-Jaguar )
Leader: Huge change.
Army: Huge change.
Jaguar Warrior: 10 shields, no prereq tech --> 15 shields, Warrior Code (which Aztec starts with);
Bowman: added bombard 1/0/1;
Musketeer: 3/4/1 --> 2/5/1, bombard 2/0/1;
War Elephant: add +1 bonus hp;
Cossack: 6/4/3, 80 shields --> 6/3/3, 90 shields, blitz;
Man-O-War: 3/2/4, bombard 3/1/2, 60 shields --> 4/2/5, bombard 4/1/2, 65 shields, create craters, enslave as Man-O-War;
F-15: bombard 4/0/2, operational range 6 --> bombard 6/0/2, operational range 9, lethal sea and land bombardment, stealth attack all current units except Leader, Princess and all king units, create craters;
Privateer: 2/1/3, 60 shields --> 2/1/5, bombard 3/0/0, 50 shields, enslave as Privateer;
Keshik: ignore mountains movement penalty --> ignore mountains and hills movement penalty;
Conquistador: Navigation --> Astronomy;
Gallic Swordsman: 50 shields --> 40 shields;
Hwach'a: bombard 12/1/1 --> bombard 8/1/1, lethal sea and land bombardment, create craters;
Guerilla: added bombard 3/0/1, ungrade to TOW Infantry.

City Improvement changes:
Aqueduct: added agricultural flag;
Recycling Center: added agricultural flag;
Coastal Fortress: added seafaring flag;
Solar Plant: added agricultural flag;
Habor: 80 shields --> 60 shields, added seafaring flag;
Offshore Platform: added seafaring flag;
Commercial Dock: added seafaring flag.

Small Wonder and Spaceship Parts changes:
Heroic Epic: added seafaring flag;
SS Stasis Chamber: Synthetic Fibers, requires Aluminum --> Robotics, requires Aluminum and Uranium.

Great Wonder changes:
The Internet: added agricultural and seafaring flags (so that it remains an all-trait wonder);
The Pyramids: added agricultural flag, tourist attraction;
The Hanging Gardens: added agricultural flag, tourist attraction;
The Colossus: expansionistic, commercial and religious --> expansionistic, commercial and seafaring, tourist attraction;
The Great Lighthouse: added seafaring flag, tourist attraction;
The Great Library: added tourist attraction;
The Oracle: added tourist attraction;
The Great Wall: 200 shields, double city defense --> 300 shields, granting Wall to every city on the same continent, tourist attraction;
Sistine Chapel: added tourist attraction;
Magellan's Voyage: added seafaring flag;
Copernicus's Observatory: added tourist attraction;
Shakespear's Theater: 400 shields --> 450 shields, allow city size level 3, tourist attraction;
Leonardo's Workshop: added tourist attraction;
JS Bach's Cathedral: added tourist attraction;
Newton's University: added tourist attraction;
Smith's Trading Company: added seafaring flag;
Universal Suffrage: militaristic --> agricultural;
Hoover Dam: added agricultural flag, tourist attraction;
The United Nations: added tourist attraction;
Cure for Cancer: added agricultural flag.

General changes:
Unit upgrade cost: 2 gold per shield --> 3 gold per shield;
Wealth shields to gold rate: 8 shields to 1 gold --> 4 shields to 1 gold;
Maximun Research Time: 40 turns --> 50 turns;

Governments changes:
Communism free units per town/city/metropolis: 2/4/8 --> 6/6/6;
Republic free units per town/city/metropolis: 0/0/0 --> 1/3/4;
Republic unit support cost: 1 gold/unit --> 2 gold/unit.

World Size changes (distance between civs / optimal number of cities):
Tiny: 6/12 --> 11/14;
Small: 9/14 --> 11/17;
Standard: 12/16 --> 12/20;
Large: 18/24 --> 18/28;
Huge: 24/32 --> 24/36.

Individual Civilization changes:
Babylon: aggressive level 4, build often science and culture --> aggressive level 3, build often defensive land units, growth and science;
China: shunned government Monarchy --> shunned government Feudalism;
Japan: favorite government Monarchy --> favorite government Feudalism;
France: shunned government Monarchy --> shunned government Fascism;
Aztecs: militaristic and religious, free tech Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial, build often offensive land units and happiness --> militaristic and agricultural, free tech Warrior Code and Pottery, build often offensive land units, growth and explore;
Iroquois: expansionistic and religious, free tech Pottery and Ceremonial Burial, build often growth, happiness and explore --> commercial and agriculture, free tech Pottery and Alphabet, build often growth, production and trade;
England: expansionistic and commercial, shunned government Despotism --> commercial and seafaring, shunned government Fascism;
Spain: religious and commercial, build often naval units, wealth, trade and explore --> religious and seafaring, build often naval units, trade, explore and culture;
Scandinavia: militaristic and expansionistic, free tech Warrior Code and Pottery --> militaristic and seafaring, free tech Warrior Code and Alphabet;
Celts: militaristic and religious, free tech Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial, shunned government Republic, build often offensive land units, trade and culture --> religious and agriculture, free tech Pottery and Ceremonial Burial, shunned government Feudalism, build often offensive land units, production and culture;
Carthage: industrious and commercial, build often naval units and trade --> industrious and seafaring, build often naval units and growth;
Korea: build often wealth and trade --> build often artillery land units, wealth and trade.

Diplomatic and Tech changes:
Right of Passage: Write --> Map Making;
Communication Trading: Write --> Print Press;
Map Trading: Map Making --> Navigation;
Philosophy: added granting a free tech to civ that discovers it first;
Satellites: added reveal the whole map.

Other changes:
Bonuses food/shield/commerce of Incense: 0/0/1 --> 0/0/2;
Basic time to clean forest: 10 turns --> 4 turns;
Deity level's AI to AI trade rate / percentage of optimal cities: 160/70 --> 170/60;
Tax collector's / scientist's outpost: 1/1 --> 2/3.


*****
Now I spot an instance of version imcompatibility: when I open ptw civ3X.bix file (installed by C3C) with C3C editor, it view that forest and jungle will turn to sea by global warming! Either it's imcompatibility, or is it a bug?



That's all I have found in the editor. Hope that helps.

[ZargonX]

Thanks Risa! That's a handy list to have around.