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  • AU Mod: Post-sail ship movement

    The Problem: originally written by alexman...

    The often-stated problem with ship movement in Civ3 is that it takes forever to move around larger maps. But if you increase the movement of ships, it creates an unfair tactical advantage for seaborne invasions and raids. Increase movement too much and defending fleets and airpower have no chance to intercept the attackers before they drop off their passengers, bombard their targets, and vanish into the fog of war or into home ports in the same turn. [/alexman]

    I would only amend the above by saying that retreating into a home port is no longer an attractive option, given that ships can be easily sunk when bombarded in a port.


    Possible Solutions:

    Increase the movement for all post-sail ships by 1 or 2 (or more...?). This would allow ships to traverse larger maps in a more realistic time-frame. It would have to be balanced with the need to keep movement low enough for Tiny/Small maps.

    more stuff lifted from an alexman post...

    One solution is to make movement in Ocean cost less than movement along the coast. That would allow rapid movement across oceans, with more movement spent in tactical operations near the enemy. This has been adopted over at the GOTM with success, but the problem is that it allows ancient Galleys to discover the World much faster.

    What if we did the following:
    Galley and Caravel are unchanged, with Galleys needing two movement points to enter Ocean. After this point, we double movement of all ships, but charge extra for movement in Coast (3), Sea (2), and ignore the extra cost of Ocean. That way exploration in the Ancient Age is still hampered, but later ships can quickly cross oceans, without removing the chance of naval/aerial combat near the shore.[/alexman]

    Any other ideas? Comments? Please share your thoughts for the AU mod!
    "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
    "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
    "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

  • #2
    This might not be doable, but what if entering a rival civ's borders slowed you down the same way it does with ground units & roads?
    If you have RoP, you still zip right along, if not, you're down to full/increased movement costs?

    Is that possible?
    I've never understood why roads magically stop working when I cross an imaginary line, but the gameplay reasoning does make sense.

    Any chance of making un-hostile territory in water act like un-hostile roaded land and hostile/non-RoP waters act like hostile-non-RoP land? I like the consistency it would bring, but realize it may not be feasible.

    I do like the idea of putting a 'wrinkle in time' for later ocean travel, though.
    "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

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    • #3
      Didn't Conquests add some movement to post ancient era ships already? I think I remember this change being implemented, but am not 100% positive. If so, are these proposed changes taking this additional movement into account already?

      My initial thoughts, without testing anything, are that if you double ship movement and make oceans cost only 1mp then that is way too fast even if sea/coast are made slower to traverse. Destroyers and Transports would then have, what, 14 movement points? If you have one coastal and sea square than these ships could move 9 squares in the ocean and then offload the troops. This is fine if you do want to give such units 11 movement points to balance them, but it strikes me as being a bit too fast.

      I agree with an increase post-sail ship movement by 1 or 2 points and still make coast/sea tiles slower for them to move through. That way they could still skate around a continental mass at a good speed, but would have to slow down to go in for (or retreat from) an attack. The galleys would be fine since it appears that they're going to cost 2mp to go through ocean squares and this movement penalty could just be ignored by post-sail ships.

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      • #4
        I agree that with the increased ship movement in C3C, the double MP idea now seems less appealing. Still thinking of alternatives...

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        • #5
          Idea: double all ship movement. Make coast coast cost 2 moves, sea either 2 or 3 moves, and ocean 3 moves. Make all post-sail ships ignore movement cost for ocean and maybe sea.

          EDIT: that seems to have sort of been proposed

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          • #6
            How about give post-sail ships only two or three moves, but make them treat all tiles as road?

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            • #7
              After thinking about it a bit, I am having a hard time coming up with a reason why to make any change, according to the AU mod's philosophy.

              Does it provide more options to the player?
              Does it help the AI?

              Also, consider that any more movement than 6 to transports and the defender will not be able to effectively patrol his coasts to detect the invaders before they land. As it is now, transports can't drop their load from farther away than 4 tiles from the coast and get back to the starting point in the same turn. Even 4 tiles away is a long way from the coast!

              My opinion: C3C added movement to late-game ships. Let's play a few games and see how that works out.

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              • #8
                This proposal would make it much harder to stop transports before they arrive. They would typically only enter one tile of sea and one of coast and it doesn't matter for the purposes of unloading whether it ends it's turn on the coast tile or not.

                Skywalker, so that would give seafaring civs an extra 3 movement? That might be desirale but only if the movements were very large to start with. Having a submarine that moved 50% faster might be overpowered or at least difficult to balance between seafaring and non-seafaring civs. Unless that's the aim or we were considering giving them blitz then I can't seeany point now in giving ships all terrain as roads.

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                • #9
                  Skywalker, so that would give seafaring civs an extra 3 movement?


                  Ouch, I didn't think of that

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by alexman
                    My opinion: C3C added movement to late-game ships. Let's play a few games and see how that works out.
                    They're still too slow for my taste, but I usually play on large+ maps. I'd prefer at least giving them another movement piont....

                    But I don't mind tabling this for discussion at a later date. Just more incentive for me to build Magellan in the meantime.
                    "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
                    "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
                    "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Stuie


                      They're still too slow for my taste, but I usually play on large+ maps. I'd prefer at least giving them another movement piont....
                      Aha, THAT is the problem. As I always play standard maps, I am quite comfort with the stock rule.

                      Perhaps we have to agree to disagree on this matter.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Risa

                        Aha, THAT is the problem. As I always play standard maps, I am quite comfort with the stock rule.

                        Perhaps we have to agree to disagree on this matter.
                        Agreed.
                        "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
                        "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
                        "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

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                        • #13
                          I think that you should increase the speed of late ships, give "zone of control" to all of them, and increase their defense rates.
                          The difference between industrial society and information society:
                          In an industrial society you take a shower when you have come home from work.
                          In an information society you take a shower before leaving for work.

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                          • #14
                            I like late-game ships fine just the way they are in C3C. If we routinely played AU games on huge maps, it might be worth considering an adjustment. But on the standard maps that most AU games are played on, I think the new C3C rules make modern ships plenty fast as they are. (Destroyers with Magellan's for a seafaring race - total movement ten - are pretty amazing!)

                            Nathan

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                            • #15
                              I play small or tiny maps, and find ship movements work well. I'd hate to try to send a fleet across the map on a standard+ map....

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