AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
Wasn't this thread about weakening the Toe-Hoover beeline? I think the change to Motorized Transportation accomplishes this in a big way. It gives the age a major choice in research strategy, which wasn't there before.

Ooh, now you're onto something!

If you want to weaken the ToE, that's a different issue, and we should have a new, independent proposal and vote.

We should agree on some sort of timing with respect to votes. I still feel that you slipped this change into the AU mod with little time for discussion. I posted late because I wanted to think about this as much as possible, and now my arguments are all irrelevant because a vote has taken place. Well they're not!




Dominae

[alexman]

Sorry if you weren't ready. I called for the vote because this thread was basically idle in terms of suggestions and debating for two days. You could have at least asked for more time to think. We can certainly repeat the vote if you like.

Also, I didn't mean for you to think that I dismiss your arguments as irrelevant. I just said that weakening the ToE is independent to the change to make the upper branch of the tech tree more attractive. We should vote on a proposal to weaken the ToE, even if the current change to Motorized transportation stays.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
Sorry if you weren't ready. I called for the vote because this thread was basically idle in terms of suggestions and debating for two days. You could have at least asked for more time to think.

Yes, sorry, I would like more than two days to think.

Once we get the first version out the door, can we agree on the following system:

1. Changes are "proposed" and "discussed". This is informal, like we've been doing it.

2. Changes become "under consideration". This means that they will formally go to a vote within the next week or so (whatever), during which time everyone has a final chance to speak their mind.

3. Changes proceed to a "vote", and are "implemented".

I know this sounds a little bureaucratic, but should proceed smoothly in practice.


Dominae

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Dominae
We should agree on some sort of timing with respect to votes. I still feel that you slipped this change into the AU mod with little time for discussion. I posted late because I wanted to think about this as much as possible, and now my arguments are all irrelevant because a vote has taken place. Well they're not!

While I still think that the proposed change is a very good one, I agree with Dominae that a vote that starts only 6 days after the initial proposal (not even the one that is voted on) feels rushed, and that we should take some more time for votes in the future (e.g. 2 weeks minimum time before starting a vote, 48 hours minimum time for the actual vote).

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Dominae

1. Changes are "proposed" and "discussed". This is informal, like we've been doing it.

2. Changes become "under consideration". This means that they will formally go to a vote within the next week or so (whatever), during which time everyone has a final chance to speak their mind.

3. Changes proceed to a "vote", and are "implemented".

Good suggestion.

IMO, the difference between 'discussed' and 'under consideration' would be that the latter requires a precise statement of the suggested change(s).

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
We can certainly repeat the vote if you like.

Sorry alexman, but now you're on a slippery slope. Repeating a vote means that the former vote is declared invalid, and that can only be done by the quorum number of panel members.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
We should vote on a proposal to weaken the ToE, even if the current change to Motorized transportation stays.

And the last one for today: We should discuss possible changes to weaken ToE, but not vote on a proposal for the short time.

[alexman]

Originally posted by lockstep


Sorry alexman, but now you're on a slippery slope. Repeating a vote means that the former vote is declared invalid, and that can only be done by the quorum number of panel members.

That's what I meant: a new proposal to vote on whether or not to cancel the change we just made. It's the same.

I agree we should have an agreement on the timing of the voting, and Dominae's suggestion seems fine, even if it means that the first version of the mod will be out at the earliest in Q2 of 2004, like the patch. Let's discuss this in another thread though.

[Dominae]

We can release the AU mod anytime we like (unlike Firaxis, we need not worry about bugs!). If we release it sooner than later, it may lack some features but that's not fatal to its purpose.


Dominae

[alexman]

Moving decision timeframe discussion to the Updating the AU mod for C3C thread.

[Theseus]

I have a new and different solution...

Leave this whole bit alone.

In a way, this is a test of one's skill at given difficulty levels, in fact one of the best tests around. If you can reliably own the Industrial Corridor, you should move up a level.

[nbarclay]

If we eliminate the Electronics requirement for Tanks and I had a tech lead and wanted Tanks as early as possible, I would probably beeline down the "corporation" branch of the tech tree and wait for the AIs to research the prerequisites for Scientific Method so I could trade for them. Once the prerequisites are available, I could start a prebuild and, if Scientific Method isn't available on the tech market by the time the prebuild is nearing completion, research Scientific Method myself.

The really scary part in terms of game balance is that with tanks available a couple techs earlier, the human player has eight extra turns or more to build up a tank force before a target civ can switch much if any of its defenses over to infantry. That dramatically enhances the power of a "race to tanks" strategy. Further, one of the major strategic choices for a warmonger in the standard game is, "Do I attack with tanks, or do I save them as prebuilds for modern armor?" The ability to get tanks two techs earlier makes an early tank assault a lot more attractive.

In regard to Dominae's idea of making a police station a prerequisite for ToE, prioritizing policie stations normally makes the least sense in cities closest to the capital. The AI isn't going to build a police station in a city just so it can build ToE there, so I'm concerned that making a police station a prerequisite for ToE may tend to cause the AIs to try to build it in cities that aren't among its most productive. If so, that would largely kill the advantage in undercutting human prebuilds.

I'm starting to like the idea of eliminating ToE from the game as a counterbalance for moving Longevity to the industrial era. But I think a lot more discussion is needed before we start making changes. I do not like the idea of going ahead and including changes that don't have a clear, well-thought-out consensus just because we're in a hurry!

[Theseus]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I'm starting to like the idea of eliminating ToE from the game as a counterbalance for moving Longevity to the industrial era. But I think a lot more discussion is needed before we start making changes. I do not like the idea of going ahead and including changes that don't have a clear, well-thought-out consensus just because we're in a hurry!

Very much agreed... let us go slowly. The first AU Mod didn't come out until 7-8 months after we had all been playing.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Dominae
What's wrong with my Police Station suggestion?

It means that it's even harder for an AI to get the ToE even if it is a long way ahead in tech. They don't build police stations that fast. Ducki's suggestion of oil is much better.

The AI could successfully prebuild ToE using Longevity or Universal Suffrage if it is ahead of the human. The advantage the human has is not so much the ability to prebuild, it's knowing to build a factory and coal plant first and that mines are better than irrigation for production when railroads show up. That isn't altered by needing a police station.

[alexman]

In my experience, I have rarely found it worthwhile to attack an opponent who has Infantry, with Tanks. Even if you beeline to Tanks, Modern Armor is only 5 techs away (Flight, Radio, Ecology, Rocketry, S.Fibers).

Another reason to keep the Change!