AUSG 101 - Domination Team DAR 2

[Taian]

I have to say that I'm not altogether comfortable with this "camp" thing...I've never played it before so not sure how this thing is going to play out. I *really* want to get a horse rush going soon, so I've switched the research from writing to horseback. 10 turns to get it. Once the worker is done in Damascus, I'm going to throw up a barracks there and then pump out some horse from the two camps. Hoping to make the first rush with a group of 6 or 7. I'm going to send that settler in Mecca down to the game by the river.

2150BC - Knocked out the barb encampment with the archer.

2030BC - Mecca builds a spearman and starts work on another settler. Baghdad founded west of game on river.

1950BC - I'm looking at doing a bit of an archer rush now, followed by a horse rush later. Medina has just finished another vet archer, and is now going to get a warrior to garrison and then will be ready to pump out horse. Damascus finished its worker and is now starting a barracks. From one of my scouts, I can see Edo is undefended and I now have 4 archers on the way to Japan.

1870BC - Mecca has finished another settler and Medina finished it''s warrior. Time for Medina to prebuild an archer to switch to horse in 2 turns. Mecca is keeping on going with the setllers. Japan has horseback, but I'm not inclined to trade away the tech advantage that I have seeing as I'm going to get it in 2 turns anyway... Shoot. Just noticed I have to hook up horses before I can build those horsemen...dumb resources

1830BC - Baghdad built a warrior and will not churn out a worker before going for a barracks to join the horse pumpers.

1790BC - Horseback Riding. I'm moving a settler up by the horses north of Medina to get them connected asap. Next stop Polytheism in 18 turns.

1750BC - Things are not looking good for Edo. No defense and an archer right beside it... Founded Najran on the horses north of Medina. Worker is close to getting it hooked up.

1730BC - Mecca finishes another settler. I could build another one there but I want to let the pop bounce up a little farther first yet. Then I'll start a settler/horse strategy. So...it's barracks time in Mecca. Medina completes archer. I really want to get those horses moving...another few turns til that road is done to Najran. Hmm...a warrior appeared in Edo. Archer against a warrior seem like pretty good odds, plus I've got 2 more archers there next turn. So it's war time! Seems the RNG gods are frowning on me. Lost the archer without done a single point of damage to the warrior. Plus, the warrior got a promotion. I was attacking grassland to grassland and not even across a river. Stupid dumb luck

1700BC - Round 2 with Edo. A vet and a regular archer vs a vet fortified warrior. Reg Archer hits first and takes Edo without suffering a single HP of damage. Best of all, I have the option of keeping a city Edo is now the property of the Arabs. Still Have the 2 archers up there, plus a warrior 2 moves from Edo. There's also a third regular archer a little further south. Once the warrior makes it to Edo, I plan on moving the 3 archers further into Japanese territory.

1675BC - Baghdad finishes it's worker and starts on a barracks. My vet archer takes down a regular warrior outside of Edo, but doesn't get a promotion. No worries though...one less Japanese military unit to deal with. The worker up by Najran just started the last bit of road to link horses to the empire. 3 turns til the boys come loose..

1625BC - Kufah founded on the hills east of Medina. I know, I know...I'm starting to spread out too much. But, I want to capitalize on the game tile. A warrior, previously there, is the first garrison unit. First build is a spearman.
Hmm...haven't been at it very long and already Toku is willing to give up Osaka. Sweet deal. Looks like the Arab-Japanese war is over For now... Started another trade sequence with Toku and seems he has a settler up at the plate as well. Must have been in Osaka before. Anyway, I'm trading him Alphabet in exchange for the worker. Need to augment the worker force right now...

[Taian]

1600BC - The road to Najran has been completed and horseman can now be built.

1575BC - Mecca finishes barracks. Before building another settler, we're going for a horseman (4 turns).

1550BC - The first horseman of the Arab empire is built in Medina. Let's keep 'em coming.

1500BC - Najran completes a worker. I'm going to chop the forest down in the immediate area to get a granary up and running there. With the flood plains, it should be a decent food generating city.

1475BC - Horseman complete in Mecca. Time to focus on settlers again in the capitol.

1450BC - Barracks completed in Damascus...more horsemen to follow after a warrior is built to garrison.

1425BC - Horseman in Medina.

1400BC - Polytheism discovered. Monarcy 26 turns away, so off we go. Settler completed in Mecca. Horseman queued up next. I figure it's time to close the gap between the core and Edo/Osaka. The settler is going to head up to the grassland there.

1375BC - Trade Mysticism to Carthage for 75 gold. Everyone else knows it already...may as well make the cash while I can.

1325BC - I lied...decided to found Basra on the hill north of Mecca. Seems to fit in nice with the other ones...RCP is out the window

1300BC - Mecca builds a horseman. Time for another settler. I contacted the Americans to find that they had researched writing. Not wanting to give up Polytheism, I'm going to trade them contact with the Carthaginians for Writing. Good deal as far as I'm concerned. Now I can set up embassies with America and Japan too see how close they are on the wonders (Japan's building oracle and America is building Pyramids). Sold contact with Carthage to Toku as well for 37 gold. Embassy in Kyoto reveals still 13 turns til the Oracle. Plus, they only have 2 spears at home. I have 3 horse and 4 archers within striking distance....looks like Kyoto is going to fall. America is 15 turns from the Pyramids. Good deal. Hopefully they've finished it by the time the Arab horseman start breathing down their necks.
Confident that it's time to take Kyoto, my stack of 4 archers and 1 horseman start their advance. There's another 2 horseman mere turns away. To try and keep Osaka from flipping (and to defend it), I pop rushed a spearman in. Remaining population is Arabic.

[Taian]

And finally, the homeland in 1250BC (before any moves)

[Taian]

If I was to keep playing, I'm pretty sure the Japanese would be all gone in 10 turns or less. Then I was planning on turning my attention to the Americans since they're starting to get a little thick for their britches. But I can't tear into them before they get the Pyramids

Overall, I think it was a good block of turns. Sitting with 9 cities and on the way to Monarchy. Starting to churn out vet horsemen which will turn into nice little Ansars eventually. Plus, the first major skirmish with another civ on the continent turned out quite nicely, with the Arabs netting two intact cities. On the downside though, I don't follow RCP too well So corruption may eventually be a problem. But since we're going for domintation, I'm not overly concerned. We should still be able to generate enough military to chew through anything in the way.

Finally, here's the save.

[Theseus]

Everybody:

I am just back from being out with my work mates on a Friday night, so forgive me aforehand...

I opened MZ's save... I jumped to this thread to quickly comment... and then it hit me.

Sorry, everyone, but I just disagree.

Archers? Are we kidding ourselves?!! Given this map, and Japan and Carthage?!!

I don;t know if what I am doing totally f*cks up the AUSG concept, or if it provides further diversity...

But I'd like to create a new branch, Dom2, starting from my 1st block save.

Rhothy, feel free to shoot me down (you got this thing together, and it is thus your call).

I know I am throwing a huge wrench into the works... but with us in Dom NOT performing like the Opportunists (best play thus far, IMHO), we need to stick to our guns (pun intended), and ROCK the house / continent.

Of all players on all the teams, I set us up to do so... and I stand by it.

Camps? They're cool... but not at the cost of EMPIRE.

To MZ: I like your style, and totally respect you and your play, but as I opened your save, I just...

I would like to start a new team with the next block, if that is acceptable to all... I can play the next block this weekend, and then we will see whether there are others to join.

Sorry again if this intoduces any difficulties, or any hindrances. I think that most know my track record here... I wouldn't make this mark, I wouldn't make this POST, if I didn't truly stand by my stance.

[Master Zen]

I understand Theseus, and also whatever decision Rhoth takes in regard. However, I'd just like to make a few points in my defense:

- Our objective is as quick a domination win as possible. That doesn't necessarily mean that to accomplish that we need to kill our immediate rivals as quick as possible. Timing is essential, and early warfare eventually leads to a tradeoff between growing your empire and spending on military. The use of camps was designed so that our wars, any of them, don't interupt with expansion and buildup.

- Our rivals are far away, true. One might see this as we need to get them before they expand. Another (me) might see this as, we can expand peacefully before we hit them. Remember, we're playing as Monarch, strategy changes as difficulty levels changes too. There's no way in hell either civ will outexpand us so there's nothing to worry in that sense.

- I would just like to stress that my style is based on momentum and balance. Image you are hurling a huge rock at your enemy. If the rock is too heavy and you are too weak, you will stumble or get hurt even if you do manage to kill the other guy. Because of that you won't be strong enough to hurl a larger rock later on. This means building up strength before you are ready to hurl. My plan was to hurl without even flinching. In the long run, as the building aspects of our empire were left undisturbed from the start we'd be in a much better position to take out Carthage (and don't tell me any one of you were planning to go after Carthage with horses)

- Finally, Taian has made it quite evident that it is possible to start warmongering with both the archers and the horses. He's got Japan permanently crippled. What could he have gained by doing it a few turns sooner? Not much if you ask me.

Well that's it, the defense rests

[vmxa1]

Well it is not my team or my call, but that does not mean I will not offer my .02

Theseus, why not just play it in your own thread. You can still play the teams game as the number of turns is small and will not take that much time? Then you can stick with your team and we can see your plan as well.
That is if Roth does not give you a green light to form up an additional team. Not of which is to say anything about either plan. I just would enjoy seeing both.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Theseus
Everybody:

I am just back from being out with my work mates on a Friday night, so forgive me aforehand...

I opened MZ's save... I jumped to this thread to quickly comment... and then it hit me.

Sorry, everyone, but I just disagree.

Archers? Are we kidding ourselves?!! Given this map, and Japan and Carthage?!!

I don;t know if what I am doing totally f*cks up the AUSG concept, or if it provides further diversity...

But I'd like to create a new branch, Dom2, starting from my 1st block save.

Rhothy, feel free to shoot me down (you got this thing together, and it is thus your call).

I know I am throwing a huge wrench into the works... but with us in Dom NOT performing like the Opportunists (best play thus far, IMHO), we need to stick to our guns (pun intended), and ROCK the house / continent.

Of all players on all the teams, I set us up to do so... and I stand by it.

Camps? They're cool... but not at the cost of EMPIRE.

To MZ: I like your style, and totally respect you and your play, but as I opened your save, I just...

I would like to start a new team with the next block, if that is acceptable to all... I can play the next block this weekend, and then we will see whether there are others to join.

Sorry again if this intoduces any difficulties, or any hindrances. I think that most know my track record here... I wouldn't make this mark, I wouldn't make this POST, if I didn't truly stand by my stance.

Sigh, this puts me in a bit of a bind with a decision I don't really want to have to make. On the one hand Theseus wants to start a new team with his starting condition. That's a good thing as it will provide two different types of warmongering to compare between his thread and MZ's. But on the other hand, it sets a precedent. What if in the future someone else has a turn block they really like that isn't chosen? Will that person decide to form another team too? Or just quit if they aren't chosen? I really hope that doesn't happen as I think this is a fun game so far and I've really enjoyed all the DAR posts.

Okay in working my way through this I think I've hit on a solution that is both fair and doesn't alienate anyone.

In one of the original threads I said that anyone who wants to can play along with the game as a regular AU course as long as they don't post ahead of the turn blocks. Vmxa1 reiterated that in his post above. I don't want to be the "Hand of Fate" and tell you that you can't start a new team because this game is supposed to be both fun and informative like all AU games. So to that end I ask Theseus to play the current turn block with both his and MZ's games this week. We had talked about possibly forming a fourth team if we get enough people so Theseus if you can form a new team within the next week or two, preferably with players that aren't already part of an existing team, then I will be happy to start a 2nd domination team. If a new team isn't formed then I'd prefer if you continued as part of the current domination team and perhaps played your game as a standard AU game without forging too far ahead in your game.

If a new team is formed then we will have to adjust which team will discuss and vote for which team in the decision process. But that can be discussed later.

Okay, thoughts on this please. Like I said I don't want to be the "Hand of Fate" and hand down all the decisions. I'm open to any suggestions. This is a team game as much so as any democracy game.

EDIT: I like to keep the main AUSG101 thread open for the announcements and discussions. Please post any responses to this in that thread. Thanks.

[Dominae]

Sorry, Theseus, but I disagree.

I see no reason to believe why your game is closer to the "spirit" of a Domination victory than anyone else's. If you do start another team, will all the members have to see eye to eye with you on how to do things? And if so, what will that do to the diversity that's creating so much good discussion?

This is not a format that lends itself well to looking at the "big picture". Why? Because each block is too short to make any real determination of which person is closer to the ultimate goal. With a super-peacful start, the Spaceship team may be closer to Domination than the Domination team is itself. The different goals of each team were just created to differentiate between them, not set a standard of rules to play by. If one player things that Archers is the way to rock this map...so be it!

Everyone needs to be allowed to "do their own thing" within each block. It may seem terribly unfair that the actual "best" block is not chosen in a given round, but that's all part of the fun. We're not actually trying to see how fast we can win this scenario, we're trying to teach and learn. And that involves accepting that the game we play will not be as "good" as we might think it could be.

This is not a Democracy Game where we're debating the best way to make our plays. Nor is it an AU scenario where each person has free reign to do what is best throughout the entire game. It's a game where you do the best you can with the save you're given, then give it up. Frankly, this is weird for me too; I'm quite glad that my save was picked on the first round! I know that I will probably disagree with some of the choices people will make in future blocks, but that's something I'll just have to live with.

Remember: winning (by Domination, or whatever) is not the real goal here. It should drive your turn play, but not your votes.


Dominae

[TheArsenal]

First off, RL issues are getting in the way this weekend, but I didn’t want to skip this turn, so you may find the DAR will not be as detailed as it could be. That said, the exact build order of my cities and movement of my units are not as important as the end situation and overall strategy. You may have to download the game to get a complete picture.

2150 - 2070: Moved the settler northwest to settle into the “dip” in the X of the cultural border and settled Baghdad which is immediately put to building a barracks. Baghdad will be used as a Camp and its singular purpose will be to pump out veteran units. The Barbarian to the east moved to attack Medina, which was without a single unit. Sending the Archer from the capitol to kill the Barbarian, sent Mecca into revolt, which was restored within a single turn. I was running a deficit, so I brought the research slider down to 70%. I was researching Writing, which will then go to Horse Riding, followed by Literature. At this point, I will also begin producing the archers I will need for the eventual rush on America.

1950- 1700: Medina and Mecca are building Settlers. Sent one Settler escorted by an Archer to create Najran due south to settle in the cultural “dip”. Not particularly fond of using single fortified Archers to guard cities, but they were already constructed and I wanted to get cities put up fast. Set Najran’s production to building barracks. Like Baghdad, its single purpose will be to produce veteran units. The second Settler is sent straight for the Americans to settle Kufah directly on the iron. The Americans do me a favor by settling Atlanta to just south of the iron deposit and Kufah, making an attack by single movement units (Swordsman) viable. Workers set to building road to this city immediately. Mecca set to barracks. Establish embassies in both Japan and Carthage, hoping to hold them out of the war a few turns until I can take a small chunk out of America.

1550 - 1425: Demascus produces Settler, heads for horses between Medina and Kufah and settles Basra. This is where the 30 turns end.

[TheArsenal]

Stats and Overview.

With a roaded city on the cultural border of America, and cities soon able to produce both the cheaper Archers and the more effective Swordsmen at a decent rate, I should be able to take at least two or three cities from America fairly quickly and still fortify the northern cities with a couple of Spearman against any possible Japanese aggression. I plan to create two stacks of units to attack both Atlanta and Boston simultaneously. Most of the stack (minus upgrading a Warrior) is in place over Atlanta. It is still early enough in the game that both cities should fall pretty quickly without using too many units. But a Scout sent quickly in and out to check would be best. The only downside is it is quite possible that Atlanta has no culture, and will go to a 1 pop prior to my attack and I will not gain a city and end up destroying it. Overall, and assuming I could sustain peace with Carthage and Japan, being able to take two or three cities from America quickly, then complete the job 20 turns later after suing for peace and building - or - waiting a while more before launching the initial attack and taking a substantial chunk out of America, should be more than feasible.

Mecca is building a Settler which I plan to settle send as far into the jungle choke point as possible depending on Carthage’s build pattern. I will eventually need the Spices, and want to be able to stop any Carthage incursions north either by Settler or Army. And as I am planning to go to war, I want to build cities away from possible fronts as not to waste units to over-fortify.

Overall, I feel I am in pretty good shape.

Cities: 7
Science: “We are advanced!” 70% Literature 6 turns
Units: 17, 2 Workers, 1 Scout, 3 Warriors (to be upgraded), 5 Archers, 1 Swordsman, 1 Horseman.

Again, this was written up pretty quickly, but hopefully gives a pretty clear picture.

[TheArsenal]

And a glimpse at the military situation forming ( the Warrior in Basra and the stack will be upgraded). You will note that Swordsman are being built in most cities producing military units.

[Dominae]

Another thought on Theseus' last post:

Are there meant to be rivalries between the various teams? I see no point in this. I think we can all learn/teach a great deal even if we're not playing the most UP-ish game of the three. The Opportunist team got off to a good start; there's no shame in the Domination team to be a little behind.

Now that I think of it, "opportunist" as a team goal seems a little odd. All other things being equal the Opportunist team will always be better than the other two teams, assuming they stick to their guns. If anyone agrees and has a problem with this, it's not too late to turn the Opportunist team into a "Culture" team. This way each team would have a very distinct and achievable goal, and there would be less reason to compare/compete between teams.


Dominae

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Dominae
Another thought on Theseus' last post:

Are there meant to be rivalries between the various teams? I see no point in this. I think we can all learn/teach a great deal even if we're not playing the most UP-ish game of the three. The Opportunist team got off to a good start; there's no shame in the Domination team to be a little behind.

Now that I think of it, "opportunist" as a team goal seems a little odd. All other things being equal the Opportunist team will always be better than the other two teams, assuming they stick to their guns. If anyone agrees and has a problem with this, it's not too late to turn the Opportunist team into a "Culture" team. This way each team would have a very distinct and achievable goal, and there would be less reason to compare/compete between teams.


Dominae

Actually I don't think there should be any reason to "compete" between the teams anyway. I set this up as a learning tool as much as anything and I think that is what it is doing so far. The wide range of play from the same start shows that. I didn't want this to be a competition because it's not really in the "AU spirit". A while back in the threads that were determining the future of Apolyton University, a competition game was discussed and shot down with good reason. AU is for learning and that's what we do best. Let CFC have it's competition games.

I'm just as competitive as the next guy. When I'm in a competition I like to win. But this shouldn't be one.

[Dominae]

I still like the idea of turning the Opportunist team into a Culture team. It's not too late, either!


Dominae