AUSG101 - Spaceship team DAR 1

[G'Kar]

Defcon5 DAR:

4000-Mecca founded

~3600-warrior from hut

3400-meet Carthage and receive Masonry for Cer. Bur., Pottery, and 14g.

3350-warrior from hut

3300-chg production from settler to temple with 6 turns remaining until size 3 is reached (temple built next turn)

3200-meet America

3150-25g from hut

3100-my guys discover bronze working, I start on warrior code

3050-the wheel from hut

2900-meet Japan, I give masonry for warrior code and 10g. I give the wheel and 8g to Carthage for Alphabet.

2710-Medina founded. Mathematics from hut.

2310-Mecca builds barracks

[G'Kar]

the save:

[G'Kar]

Good job gentlemen. I was not blessed with any settlers from huts . My first concern was to take advantage of the choke point to the S and block Carthage, and also grab the spices. I'll still need another city down there to make it secure.

I probably should have irrigated around Mecca. My first priority was the road, but I probably would have another settler already if I had.

Regardless, I'm still confident I can be the world's leader with this start. I do lead the tech race; techs I have that the bad guys don't:

Japan: Alpha, Pottery, Math
America: Alpha, Math
Carthage: Math

[Rhothaerill]

Time for the decision process

Well it is almost midnight EST so I'm going to go ahead and officially declare the first turn block over. Now we can start the process of deciding which saves will begin the next turn block. As seen from the poll in the other thread it has been decided to have one other team decide on each team's turn block. Therefore the spaceship team would choose for the domination team and in turn the opportunist team will choose for the spaceship team

In the domination DAR thread please post your preference for the next turn save for the team you have been assigned. It is also encouraged, though not mandatory, to discuss and critique the individual saves while posting your preference. The time period for discussing and posting your preference will last until 23:59 EST Thursday, and the next turn block will begin on Friday.

Please note that in the event of a tie by the end of the decision process either myself or Nuclear Master will break the tie if I am not around on Thursday (unlikely).

[Dominae]

Dominae's evaluation

I'll give a few comments on each game, then my "verdict". Sorry if I sound "high horse"-ish with some of these...I'm very open to disagreement.

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Tarquinius

Pluses:

1. Picked a cheap tech to research early (Bronze Working) in order to get more expensive techs from Goody Huts. The other options (as I see it) were Warrior Code (same price) or Mysticism. As a Religious civ, a beeline along the Monarchy branch keeps your options open (for a quick transition to Monarchy) and provides you with good trade bait in the form of Polytheism. Going for Mysticism early is a gamble but a good one, despite its higher cost and therefore the lower probability of getting an expensive tech from a Hut. A choice of either Bronze Working or Warrior Code is more conservative, but still very good.

2. Constructed Granary in Mecca. This is almost a picture-perfect start for building a Granary; the high Food and high Shield output of the starting location makes constructing one an easy venture, and it pays off very quickly after that.

3. Built a Scout first. Unless you have very good reason to believe you're on a small island, you should always build a Scout first when playing an Expansionist civ. It's the trait's only advantage (other than starting with Pottery, but that's not such a big deal)!

Minuses:

1. Researched Mathematics. When you're ahead in tech, it's good to have a goal to strive toward (preferably a goal that will improve your position!). Mathematics does not fit into any goal/plan that I can think of (Catapults?). It's value as trade bait is, normally very important, is downplayed here by your strong relative position in tech. Heading for one of the governements would have been better.

2. Founded Medina on a Flood Plains. I know Flood Plains sometimes caused Disease and therefore suck, but the power of their high Food output easily outweighs this nuisance. By exploiting both Flood Plains you would ultimately have more flexibility, as you can always translate that bonus Food into Shields by working Forets tiles. Later on when out of Despotism, Flood Plains produce 4 Food, which adds even more flexibility to your city.

3. Founded Damascus without Worker support. When possible, it's always good to have at least one Worker "around" every new city in order to keep up on tile improvements (a reason close city-spacing is so good, because your Workers can be "around" many cities at once). In your screenshot, Damascus is helping out militarily, but is working unimproved tiles and is therefore being inefficient. It would be better to build a Worker there before the Spearmen.

4. Popped out Warriors before a Temple. There is little reason to be so afraid of Barbs so early in the game and at this difficulty. The earlier you build a Temple, the more impressive its Culture will be later on: those first few turns span thousands of years! Also, a Temple allows a Settler "pump" city to grow bigger without the help of the Lux slider.

Overall: Very good game. Do not sell yourself short, Tarquinius!

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I'll be briefer with the comments from now on, since many of them will be repeated.

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vmxa1

Pluses:

1. Used the Expansionist trait to its fullest. Wow, four Scouts! You must really like those dudes! I think that number is usually a bit excessive (considering your chances of getting Conscripts from Huts), but on this map it surely pays off, with so many Huts to grab.

2. Constructed an early Temple. You sure know how to use your traits!

Minuses

Generally I feel that you did not put as much into this game as you potentially could, vmxa1. You're probably overtired from helping Firaxis...

1. Omitted building a Granary in the capital. Like I said above, I think this is a great start for a Granary, no matter what your goal is.

2. Researched Alphabet first. It's the most expensive first tier tech! I guess it's plausible to want to get to The Republic really fast, but I still think the better play is to research a low cost tech in order to get a higher cost one from a Hut.

3. Founded Baghdad a little too far. Are you planning to backfill later, or do you want an extra challenge by using a loose spacing? The vast distance between your cities just puts extra burden on your Workers.

4. Neglected to trade with neighbors. A few early trades never hurt, especially when you're still the only one with all contacts and the clock is ticking.

Overall: Not sure...not a lot of info to work with. Try playing when less tired!!

(By the way, vmxa1, the autosave files are quite a bit bigger than the manual saves. The game does some compression when creating the latter.)

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I'm spending a lot of time on these because I think that the early-game is the most important part of the game...we have to help each other get it right!

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Mountain Sage

Pluses:

1. Started out with a strategy before even playing a single turn. I'm not sure if this is actually what happened, but the report tells it this way and I'm inclined to believe it. It's always good to know where you're going even before moving that first unit. A little plan shows that you're thinking beyond the turn-by-turn.

2. Constructed an early Granary in the capital.

3. Traded with other civs efficiently. Not so important on Monarch (as I've learned), but still a good thing to do.

Minuses:

1. Queued up a Worker before a Granary in the capital. The Shield output is high enough at the start spot to be able to build some Scouts and a Granary without much loss to unimproved tiles. You seem to like having Workers build Roads long before these get used. I like the idea of building Roads to your future city-sites, but I think Food/Shield efficiency takes precedence.

2. Spent Worker-turns improving a Hills tile. A Hills tile takes 19 Worker-turns (non-Industrious) to improve. Yet a Forest yields just as much without improvement (ok, maybe 4 turns to put a Road on it). Heck, even putting a Mine on a Plains tile is equivalent, and again takes less time.

3. Garrisoned cities too early. In your screenshot, you have military units in cities that are still size 2. Why not move them away from your city in order to get an advance warning of Barb attack or AI troop movement? Information like that is, to me, worth at least one notch in the Lux slider early on.

Overall: Nice to see at work, Mountain Sage! Too bad you got a free city in such a remote location. Again, I must comment that I like that way you plan things ahead of time.

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How many more?

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ZargonX

Pluses:

1. Constructed a Granary in the capital. What, may I ask, did you build before the Granary?

2. Traded efficiently and early with other civs. See above.

3. Efficient use of Workers. From your screenshot it looks like you're making good use of your Worker-turns: connecting cities, improving tiles as needed for each city, etc.

Minuses:

1. Sent first Scout South. There be Jungle down there, boy! When other options are readily available, Scouts should avoid treacherous terrain. On this map, going South works out somewhat because you can block the Carthaginians via the isthmus. But generally you want to avoid Jungle and search out those Huts!

2. Researched Alphabet first. See above.

3. Lost a Shields to a Barb attack. Just kidding!

Overall: Not much to comment on here, either. It looks like you're in control of this game, but mostly I'm inferring this from the screenshot.

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One more!

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Defcon5

Welcome!

Pluses:

1. Completed a Temple early on. If you're going to build a Temple as a Religious civ, it might as well be before the Barbs really get in your hair.

2. Traded early with other civs. See above.

3. Researched Bronze Working first. See above. Bronze Working first and Warrior Code next is the best way for the Arabs to get the highest profit out of Huts.

4. Identified the strategic importance of the isthmus. I'm quite surprised that you're the only one to have mentioned this in this team!

Minuses:

1. Omitted building a Granary in the capital. See above.

2. Switched production from Settler to Temple. Why did you do this? If you're not going to build a Granary, you want those Settlers out ASAP (i.e. every time your cities reach size 3).

3. Missed a Hut. As an Expansionist civ, there is no reason to not pop a Hut that you've spotted if you've got a free unit standing around. There might be a free Settler under that Hut!

4. Mined a Plains with Cattle tile. As pointed out somewhere else, this provides no benefit under Despotism. Better to put Irrigation on both.

5. Garrisoned cities too early. See above.

Overall: Not bad at all, but there's a couple of basic things you need to pick up (and you'll pick up quick if you keep playing this game!).

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General comments:

All the games were well done, IMO. But there is still room for improvement, which is good, because that's the point.

Only Mountain Sage seems to be focusing on the Spaceship goal, with his plans of reaching Literature and Libraries as quickly as possible. It's hard to plan so far ahead, but think Mountain Sage has the right idea.

However, I like Tarquinius' execution better. He's covered all the basics (Granary, exploration, tech trading, defense), and has a city placement that is very amenable to an efficient empire (it's RCP...hey! I missed that the first time around, nice work Tarq!).

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Final vote: Tarquinius


Dominae

[vmxa1]

Nice job Dom.

Counterpoints:

I would agree it is usually wise to take an easy to research tech to start. I was expecting to get some quick contact trades and huts, so I figured that Alpa was
one that would be harder to trade for, but it was just a shot. Anyway I figured I would never finish researcing, but if I did it would be fine.

Trading, I did a bit, but really they had no money and I will confess I just don't bother most of the time.
I reread my post and I find three trades. I reread yours and you only mention one.
The last one found (Carth) has the most money and I would make a check on them at about this point.
I am actually hoping to see the light via the run, but I doubt its value. Maybe it is due to my lack of timing, but if it requires checking every turn, count me out.

Granary, well I am not convinced it is required in this setting, but I could be wrong. I suspect the town will generate units fast enough.

Spacing:
Well this is monarch and I am going for a SS, so I want the first 3 or 4 cities with at least 19 tiles. From the quick look at the mod, it looks like space parts will be even harder to build than normal.
The other consideration is that the advance tribe forced me to try to fill in right away. This is where getting a settler may have been better.
I see my closest civs being USA and it has a late UU, so I will have time for them. I see Carth is going to be strangled, so I am not worried about them.


So I will confess to rushing the game a bit, but really I am happy with 4 cities and 1 lux hooked up and will soon have the door slamed shut on Carth.

[vmxa1]

BTW, I forgot the saves for autosaves are larger. I usually have it tuned off, but this game set it on, so I left it that way.

[Mountain Sage]

My DAR for the last 10 rounds:
2390BC: Damascus built its Worker; it will head east, escorted by a warrior. Now it will build 2 more warriors to keep the Barbs in check..
2350BC: Granary built in Mecca, time for a Spearman+Settler. I hesitated finishing the granary instead of building a Settler strait away, but now I can crank out a whole S+S in less than 10 turns.
Medina got a mine, its Worker will head for the furs. Medina’s Settler will then build the next city on it (we lose 1 turn, I know).
2310BC: our S Warrior is recalled back and now blocks the isthmus. Carthage will be isolated for another while…
2230BC: the Spearman in Mecca is done; we disbanded a Scout and gained 1 turn; in 3 turns our S+S team will be ready to march upon our new road. The N Worker was recalled back; now it’s roading and irrigating some tiles near our W horses for our next city.
Writing in 2 turns.

The next moves:
1. Our S+S team will found a city 3 tiles N of Mecca, on the hill. It will then crank out S+S teams asap. Our next Settler will still go farther N and we hope to block the Japanese.
2. Medina’s Settler will plop a city on the furs, then it’s a W+S team heading SW along the coast.
3. The next city will be built by the W horses, then on the isthmus, then on then E horses.
4. Damascus’ S+W team will head east.
5. Research: we’ll head strait for Literature and the GL at max research speed.

The larger game: the Americans are expanding too fast for my taste, especially that the central part of the continent is exceptional land. We will have to prune them back a bit. I already have a plan…

[Mountain Sage]

And the screenshot:

[Mountain Sage]

Dominae,

Thanks a lot for your comments. I am going to REALLY like this way of gaming!

Comments on your comments:
1. Worker before Granary: yes, I like the power of workers early on. Quicker tile improvements and more roads, but I agree, a Granary first is an excellent tip.
2. Mine on a hill: the difference betweena mine and a chopped forest is that the mine stays forever. You don't get the shields early on from the forest, but once the mine is 'working' you get your shield every turn. So it's a trade-off.
3. Military units in size 2 towns: I built those units waiting for the towns to grow in size (for workers and/or settlers). The barbs were in the (far) future anyway, so no advanced scouting needed. But once I get a settler, I can send it off immediately, without waiting for the escort (warrior or spearman): turns gained.
Comments?

[Tarquinius]

Thanks Dominae for the detailed replies!
That really helps us out, at least it does for me
I agree that Mathematics was a bad choice, I actually don't have a clue why I took it. Writing would have been a better choice.

Your comment about the temple is interesting, that would have avoided my struggle with the luxury slider

And about Damascus, I forgot to change Damascus, I think I planned Warrior, worker there. Certainly not a spearman!

And of course thanks for choosing me

[ZargonX]

Thanks for the feedback, Dominae!

In answer to your question: I pumped out 2 scouts before constructing teh granary. I felt it was the best balance between exploration and eventual expansion.

Regarding sendign the scout south to begin with... well, I've always liked going south; it feels like going downhill

Regarding Alphabet first: When beelining for scientific dominance, I always go with Alpha first. I'd rather waste a few turns research and get it from a trade or hut then plan on getting it via trade and hut and fall behind. Just my personal preference.

[alexman]

Finally finished my round. I guess I'm late, but that's OK because I didn't do very well anyway.

Pre-game plan:
To launch as fast as possible, we need help from the AI. At Monarch, the AI falls behind in research, unless they are a superpower, so they need help from us. We will leave as many AIs as possible alone, attacking only to get enough territory to sustain a comfortable 4-turn per advance pace.

We will go for max research, trading (or gifting) our advances to everyone as soon as we get them. Since we are religious, we will B-line for Monarchy, and then switch to Democracy, which is more powerful in the AU mod. Monarchy will get us out of Despotism ASAP, while providing support for our ancient age army that we will use to attack our first neighbor.

The starting location looks promising, but we need another bonus food tile to get a 4-turn settler factory. Try to find such a tile before settling. If not, we will settle at the start position. We need many scouts to get contacts and speed up the tech rate.

4000: Move worker NW to uncover tiles not reached by moving to the hill, while still moving to a cow tile to be improved. No food bonus found. Scout will end up on hill, but move E first in case there is another hill or mountain. Move scout SW to hill. No food bonus. There are two grassland tiles (SW-SW-SW, SW-SW-S of Settler) that might have bonus food if we move the Settler. The reward would be a 4-turn settler factory. The risk is a loss of a turn. Feeling lucky.

3950: Plop Mecca. No food bonus. Oh Well. Worker irrigates cattle. Scout1-E-SE, pop hut: Warrior Code. Research Mysticism at 100%.

3900: Scout1-N-N. Found that food bonus! Too late, but the 4-turn factory is so important that we will build the second city on the bonus grassland NE-NE from Mecca. Mecca will be abandoned for the Palace jump. For now, it will build scouts until it is large enough to build a settler to found the factory ASAP.

3850: Scout1 moves NE-NW (to climb mountain next turn)
3800: Scout1 moves NE-NE. See goody hut.
3750: Mecca builds Scout2. Irrigation finished. Worker roads cattle. Scout1-NE-NE (hut: maps, see new hut north). Scout2 moves SW-S (sees hut)
3700: Scout1-N-N (going for hut), Scout2-W, pops hut: maps, Scout2-SE.
3650: Scout2-E-S. Scout1-NW-N, pops hut: maps
3600: Road finished, move worker to second cattle (SW). Scout2-E. Scout1-NW-W
3550: Mecca builds Scout3. Worker irrigates cattle. Scout2-E. Scout1-W-N (on mountain), Scout3-N-NW-W
3500: Scout3-NW-N, Scout2-N-NE, Scout1-N-E
3450: Scout3-W-N, Scout2-NE-E, Scout1-NE-NE
3400: Scout1-NE-N, meets American Warrior. Scout2-SE-NE. Scout3-N-W, pops hut: Bronze. Trade Bronze to Americans for 10g, as they are likely researching it anyway.
3350: Finished irrigating second cattle, Worker roads cattle. Scout3-N-NW, Scout2-NE-N, Scout1-E-NE
3300: Scout1-SE-E, Scout3-NW-N (see green borders), Scout2-NE-N
3250: Mecca builds settler, settler moves N-E, Scout2-S-E, Scout1-NE-E, Scout3-W-NW. Trade Bronze, Pottery, Warrior Code to Japan for Wheel plus 10g. Trade Wheel, Burial to America for Masonry. Gift 55g to Japan to make them polite. Trade masonry to Japan for 55g.
3200: Scout3-NW-W, plop Medina, Scout2-E-E, Scout1-S, Worker moves E to plains.
3150: Scout2-NW-NW, Scout1-E-NE, Scout3-W, Worker-irrigate plains.
3100: Scout2-N-N, Scout1-S-S, Scout3-S
3050: Mecca builds Warrior1. Scout2-E-N. Scout1-S-E. Scout3-N. Warrior1-N-N (going to uncover some hill tiles skipped by scouts). Then he will return home for MP and for defense against barbs. Lower science to 40% as we will get Mysticism next turn.
3000: Warrior1-N, Scout1-SE-SE, Scout3-NE-N, Scout2-E-E. Science back to 100%
2950: Scout2-N-W, Scout1-S-W, Worker finished irrigation, order to road. Warrior1-N, Scout3-SE-E
2900: Mecca builds Worker2, Warrior1-NW, Scout3-SE-E, Scout1-NW-W, Scout2-SW-W, Worker2-SW
2850: Scout3-NE-N, Warrior1-NW, Worker2-road, Scout2-N-W, Scout1-W-NW
2800: Scout2-S, Scout1-NW-W, Warrior1-S, Worker1-NE-NE, Scout3-N-N (see hut)
2750: Warrior1-S, Scout1-N-W, Scout2-W. We don't want a Settler up where Scout3 is, so switch build to settler and pop. Scout3-E (maps), Scout3-E
2710: Worker1-irrigate, Scout2-NW-NW, Worker2 done with road, move W to bonus grass. Warrior1-S, Scout3-W-W, Scout1-E-S
2670: Mecca builds Warrior2, Warrior2-N-E (to Medina), Worker2 mines bonus grass, Warrior1-S, Scout1-SW-SW, Scout3-W-N, Scout2-SW-SW
2630: Scout2-SW-S, Warrior2-fortify, Warrior1-E, Scout3-7, Scout1-S-SW
2590: Scout1-W-SW, Scout2-S-S, Worker1 done with irrigation, order to road. Warrior1-S, fortify in Mecca. Scout3-W-SE
2550: Scout2-W-S, Scout1-W-W, Scout3-SE-SE
2510: Scout2-S-S, Scout1-W-W, Scout3-SE-E
2470: Medina builds Granary, Scout2-W-S, Scout1-N-W, Scout3-SE-S, Worker1-E to chop game forest
2430: Worker1-chop, Worker2-road (finished mining bonus grass), Scout2-2, Scout3-SE-S, Scout1-SW-S, Warrior1-N-E (MP for Medina, which grew to size 4). America got Iron Working, but we can't trade for it.
2390: Mecca builds Spearman because I messed up and it was building a settler without having enough population yet. Scout2-S, Scout1-SW-SW, Scout3-SE-S
2350: Scout2-S, Whoa, there's more land here! Initial scouting pass missed it. Scout3-SE-S, whoops, ended turn next to barb. Scout1-SE-SE
2310: Scout3 dead, Scout1-SE-S, Worker2 done with road, move E, irrigate. Scout2-S. Luxury slider 10% because Medina is size 5. Japan got Iron Working too.
2270: Medina builds Settler, Scout1-E, Scout2-S, Lux slider back to 10%, Settler-NE-NE, going to get game in boundaries of Medina
2230: Scout 2 meets barb, has to retreat N. Scout1-S-E
2190: Medina builds Worker3, plop Damascus, Scout1-E-S, Worker3-NE-NE, Scout2-SW, damn, next to barb. Warrior1-S (from Medina)
2150: Scout2 killed. Warrior1-S, Worker3-road, Scout1-SE-SE-SE (using road), Worker2-S

Summary:
Bad luck with three exploring scouts has left the barb-infested south unexplored. The goody huts (maps,maps,maps,maps,gold,bronze,WarriorCode) weren't especially goody, but the two techs were welcome. At least we are almost done setting up the 4-turn settler factory in Medina. The tech rate is not very good, as we have met only two civilizations.

Future plans
Explore the south, build loads of chariots for MP, which will be upgraded later to Ansars. Expand as fast as possible using the settler pump and build FP near Palace. Conquer one of the AIs with Ansars and jump Palace to their core. No more plans for expansion after that. Gift technologies to all other AIs, when we meet them. Let the AI research maps (they love to do so) and build suicide galleys to get more contacts.

[alexman]

Oh yeah, here's the save too...

[G'Kar]

Dominae,

Thanks for the comments, I basically agree with everything. I switched from a settler to temple because Mecca needed 6 more turns to reach size 3, I didn't want to waste 6 turns of production. Missing the hut next to Mecca wasn't cool but I sent the scout/warriors out away from the homeland and didn't see that hut until the borders expanded.