AU207: Big Planet - Strategy, Spoilers and Comments

[Catt]

Finally, a compilation of minimaps from the replay movie to show the development of the world.

Additional game notes and thoughts later.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Nor Me
Olaf, I looked at your save.

...
What did you do? Reputation is a little bit more important with 16 civs.
...

They might be pissed beacuse I took out the Babs too late, after contact was made. Furthermore, I didn't gang them up on Japan, so Japan ganged some of them up on me.

But after I made peace with everybody, the clusterfukc really started. Now the world except me is in war with Japan. To bad it is so hard to get to them (bad terrain), otherwise I could had joined in and picked the leftovers.

Perhaps I could become a peaceful lurker and hope they nuke each other to kingdom come? Then I launch my spaceship when they least expect it...

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Catt
Though Orleans was not the wonder masterpiece I’ve had before (missing the Great Library and Sistine being the biggest flaws), it was impressive. Orleans contained: the Pyramids, the Great Wall, Sun Tzu’s, JS Bach’s Cathedral, Shakespeare’s Theatre, Newton’s University, Hoover Dam, Forbidden Palace, Wall Street, Battlefield Medicine, and the UN.

Glancing at your screenshot, I'm reminded at how pitiful even the most wonderful and modern cities look when you take the time to look at their City View. Would it be too much to ask to have buildings litter the landscape, instead of just a few huddled together amongst a sea of Wonders?!? Sigh.

Another peaceful game. Well done Catt. I await your comments in this game, to see if they match some of my own observations concerning Huge maps.


Dominae

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Olaf HÃ¥rfagre
Perhaps I could become a peaceful lurker and hope they nuke each other to kingdom come? Then I launch my spaceship when they least expect it...

Perhaps? It's your only hope. Repent now before it is too late!

Originally posted by Konquest02
Can anybody lend me a leader from their game?

Unfortunately, no . Thinking that too large a tech lead was unnecessary, I used some gold to upgrade 20 knights in order to get some jungle on the Western side.

I declared war on the Babylonians only to see some German warriors, archers and horsemen coming through the jungle in my direction. I quickly bought them in for Monarchy and soon I had a three way war.
Of course, my knights experienced very little counterattack as lower tech enemy units aimed for each other.
I don't know how many elite victories I had but no leaders and it was getting late for the FP when I had to call it a day when the Germans got Feudalism.

I built and researched towards Navigation. In 500 AD, I got a message about the Celts elimination. In 540 AD I met the other civs and the Sistene chapel was built by someone else.
Now it's 550AD and things are going well. I've got Astronomy and Navigation ahead of all other civs. The Mongols have Invention and are the only other civ able to continue a wonder. I traded Banking to the other continent for luxuries. My continent still don't have it.
I'm still 60 turns to the FP but I've got a University in half my cities.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Catt
With Shakespeare’s Theatre one turn from completion, I traded Free Artistry to Korea for 113 gpt, to the Mongols for 50 gpt, to Japan for 33 gpt, 60 gold and a world map, and to the Aztecs for 1 gpt, 80 gold and a world map. Thus, Free Artistry secured Shakespeare’s for Orleans’ greater glory, and also brought in 200 gpt!

This I feel is one of the biggest problems with the AI, which I am of course guilty of exploiting time and time again (except usually with Bach's or Smith's).

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Nor Me

We're sill waiting for more details on Nathan's game.
Only replay screenshots won't show how he was able to build enough roads to use War Chariots against so many civs.

I wish I had screenshots or saves from right before the German campaign, but I wasn't thinking about trying to tell the story in this much detail. On the western front, my effectiveness in settling left Germany with relatively few cities, and I had a road network in place to hook up spices. The screenshot below comes from a save after the end of the German and Zulu wars, but I've marked the German cities with blue circles and marked the extent of the road network as of when the war started. Basically, on that front, my WCs operated as slow-movers (but still with their retreat advantage) over hills while a smaller number of horsemen and swordsmen operated in some places where WCs couldn't. (That front had about four or five of the thirty-plus swordsmen I upgraded from warriors, and the horsemen came from cities that produced 15-19 shields per turn in my GA and could therefore produce a horseman just as quickly as a WC.)

[vulture]

Catt wrote:

I'm only extrapolating from Firaxian comment at CFC, but MIke B.'s comments seemed to indicate that the odds for any given goody hut outcome are the same for every civ -- but if the chosen outcome is not allowed (barbs for an expansionist civ, for example), then the RNG just chooses again among all possibilities with the same percentage chances -- in other words, the odds of "good" outcomes is not improved for expansionist civs, but such civs get to "roll the dice again" if a prohibited outcome is selected. Since barbs were impossible from my goody hut, I assumed I had as good a chance as any expansionist civ for a settler from that hut. Am I mistaken?

Yup, you're mistaken. The effect of 'rolling again' if you get a bad outcome is to increase the probabilities of all good outcomes. The ratio of probabilities of good outcomes remain the same, but they 'expand' to fill up the space taken by the bad outcomes (eg if 2 good outcomes have probilities of 50% and 25%, and the reroll probability if 25%, then the final probabilities for the good outcomes are 66.7% and 33.3%)

If the probability of getting a settler on the first roll (non-expansionist probability) is Ps, and the probability of getting a 'bad' result - and therefore a reroll - is Pr, then the non-expansionist probability of getting a settler is Ps, as opposed to the expansionist probability of
Prob on 1st roll + (prob of having second roll * prob on 2ns roll) + ...
Ps + (Pr * Ps) + (Pr * Pr * Ps) + (Pr * Pr * Pr * Ps) + ...

which, after a little cunning manipulation, becomes Ps / (1 - Pr). Since Pr is greater than 0, (1 - Pr) is less than 1, and so the probability is greater than Ps. So expansionist civs are more likely to get settlers.

EDIT: How hard can it be to spell 'quote'...

[nbarclay]

The screenshot below is from a while before the Zulu campaign. By the time I attacked the Zulus, the Babylonian cities were mine. After dealing with Babylon, I had about half a dozen workers build a road up to the Zulus, and I had all but the last tile or two (the last one being in a Zulu city radius) ready when my swordsmen struck. The German and Zulu road networks were also just a little more developed by the time of the war.

After capturing my first Zulu city, my swordsmen headed east into Zulu territory, while my WCs headed north into German territory as soon as the last little bit of road could be finished. Workers split up to help provide roads to reinforce both groups. Once I had roads tied into the Zulu road network, WCs could join my surviving swordsmen in the main campaign against the Zulus. I also had to keep some swordsmen (later joined by horsemen) in position to deal with Zulu archers attacking across the mountains.

[vulture]

The end of the ancient era

At the end of my war with Babylon I had fewer spearmen than cities, and only two swordsmen, and I hadn't finished covering my subcontinent with cities yet. Plus I still had lots of temples, libraries and marketplaces to build. And was at war with Japan and America (I'd refused a demand from the Japanese, and hadn't been able to afford to bribe anyone else into the war - they'd brought the Americans in).

Since neither of my opponents would talk to me, I focussed on consolidating my territory, with a host of spearmen, a few settlers to capture the rest of the unclaimed land, and a new military force in anticipation of barbarians, Japanese or American forces eventually finding out where I lived, or the next war with Babylon.

Eventually Japan were willing to talk to me, and since they were noticably more powerful they were always going to demand money for peace. I decided to cave in in return for a quiet life. I had to pay off the Americans too. Not a glorious moment in our history. And two turns before completing the Great Library, Japan finished it. I had to change to a library and waste 302 shields. Grrrr. Now I have a grudge.

I finished researching currency, traded for monarchy and republic (I only wanted repulic, but could trade that for monarchy at no extra cost to me, so I did so). Changed straight to republic, and for once got a nice short 2 turn anarchy (due to being one of the smaller countries I expect). Had to go to 10% luxuries, but decided that since there was only one ancient era tech left to research there was no point me researching it, so I went the 0-science route and stockpiled cash to buy it (and rush all those improvements I needed). I also made a concerted effort to take out all the nearby barbarian camps to avoid uprising problems at the end of the era.

At this point Babylon sneaked a town in past the NW chokepoint (via galley), and the Germans planted a town on the spices. I'd been slow to expand in that direction, being content with having the chokepoint. The military buildup was going okay, so I could see a new war with Babylon on the horizon, to prune them back a bit more, tidy up my borders, and get a town nearer the spices once they'd improved it a bit.

As a nice bonus, the zulu town on the chokepoint flipped to me. The zulu then demanded tribute, which I suspected was a prelude to war. I refused, and they backed down. I'm a little wary though, 'cos my (now) 2 towns over there are isolated due to all the mountains, and the zulu managed to sneak a city into the jungles on the peninsula on my side. I anticipate a war over there once Babylon are finished. I also need a war against Germany to get the spices and some of that jungle territory, for better resource odds.

The Second Babylonian war

Babylon had four cities in the south, in a chain along the coast, one in the northeast, and one in the northwest. I wanted to prune the southern cities, and hopefully get the northern ones in a peace settlement. So I sent in two attack groups, one of 4 swordsmen and 2 horsemen, one of 2 swordsmen and 4 horsemen (I'd planned 3 and 3 groups, but got the movement mixed up, and couldn't be bothered to reshuffle them). The first group took their objective easily, capturing 4 workers in the process, who were immediately set to building a road over the mountains to old French territory. The second group had to move an extra turn to get next to their town, and could see extra defenders moving in. When we attacked, there were at least 3 spearmen and 3 bowmen. Two horsemen retreated, and we had 4 victories, but the town refused to fall. If we can take it, it is defended by a river against counter-attacks, and is the only Babylonian source of iron, so this is a key city.

Then I had to stop for the night... The war aims are to take this town, which leaves Babylon with 4 cities, two of which are only going to be producing 1 shield each. Then I can mass forces to capture Babylon and the Lighthouse, leaving one city in the south which would be the new capital, and hopefully let me get the other two towns for peace. Then the one remaining city can be crushed at leasure, 20 turns later.

While this was happening, the Mongols demanded tribute. I refused (as always) and they declared war. I bribed Germany to join the war, since they were three techs behind me and directly between me and the Mongols. I doubt I'll see any Mongols in the next 20 turns, and then can make peace.

Tech-wise Feudalism and Monotheism are now known by some of the AI, and I'm about 6 turns from Engineering, and have a palace pre-build underway for the great middle-ages wonder grab. Naturally I hope to get Engineering first, and trade for the other techs (as always). The combination of the French commercial trait and my markets and libraries coming on line is giving me moderately good research, although I'm still rather small compared to many AI civs, so I'll have to work hard to keep up in tech here.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Dominae
Yes, nice game Mountain Sage! I knew a peaceful victory was the best way to beat this map, but was hoping everyone would want to warmonger and make things a lot harder on themselves...You were one of the only ones to resist!

Any after-game strategy thoughts?


Dominae

Well, yes.

First of all, the decision to take out the Babylonians early on was critical. I did not want to face one day the Babs, the Germans and the Zulus together or by twos.

Also, it gave me more 'Lebensraum'. See the difference between Catt's game and mine, in respect of the land 'owned' by the French.

Then, even on huge maps, a general startegy of C-T-T-C pays in terms of settlers, production, gold and units (if you have to go to war).

A nice diference of playing style: Catt went for the Pyramids and I went for the GLibrary. It's a tough choice, I admit, but the GL paid very well off.

By the way, I re-played the game until the end of the Middle Ages, going to war against the Germans (2 'short' wars with Knights, wiped out) and the Chinese (4 cities captured with Cavalry).
The difference? I was beaten to the SC by 3 turns, JSBach and Copernicus. My treasure was crappy, I even lost my Tech advance, and all this for 3 Ivory which I could have traded for.

My lesson for huge maps is the following: if you have enough 'Lebensraum', forget conquest wars. It's not worth.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Catt

With a dozen or so turns to go on the Great Library, Japan completed the wonder.

Catt, great game
It's good to show some people 'the virtues of being a peacenik'

With the French and the Alphabet for free, I almost always beeline for Literature and the GL, but I never trade Literature until a few turns before the completion of the GL, even if I know I miss some great deals.
The GL pays me back then the non-traded Techs handsomely.
But to build a Granary in each city... well, at least you have the gold for it.

Afterwards, I either go for Construction (to get an Aqueduct asap, for size 8-9 cities for further gold and shields for Wonders) or Monarchy (for the HG). In your opinion, which is best?

Now, let's hear how the warmongers fare

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage

Now, let's hear how the warmongers fare

1260 AD, and I'm nine techs into the industrial age (including National and Communism, obtained from AIs). My tech lead over my nearest AI competitor currently stands at four techs, and that's without having built ToE yet. (I'm hoping an AI will research Medicine for me, even if it does mean Cheops has to sit around for a while before he can complete his life's work.) I'm only about 100 gpt away from being able to research Combustion (which I'm just now starting) in four turns out of purely domestic income without ever running a deficit, and I have over 1100 gpt in foreign income from tech and luxury sales, so my capacity for rush building is quite nice. (And I still have a lot of room for my wealth and science generating capacity to grow before the end of the industrial era.) By the way, I'd be in even better shape financially if the Ottomans didn't beat me to Smith's by about four turns.

I'll go into more detail later, but I wanted to shatter any illusions that warmongering doesn't pay on this map.

Nathan

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by nbarclay


I'll go into more detail later, but I wanted to shatter any illusions that warmongering doesn't pay on this map. :evilgrin"

Nathan

What is the saying? "To have fish, you must bait them'

Keep on

[Chemical Ollie]

I will not finish my current game. Guess why?

It is spelled P t W

My local computer store sent me an E-mail today to inform me that they had finally got a copy for me (I ordered it in February).

I might replay on the same map, with another tribe. Was Vikings among the options?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I'll go into more detail later, but I wanted to shatter any illusions that warmongering doesn't pay on this map.

Warmongering always pays in Civ3, but sometimes peace is an equally viable (and less time-consuming!) option.

vulture: hang in there!


Dominae