Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[yxhuvud]

aaglo: the problem with the med inf is not that persians and romans don't or wouldn't use it. The problem is that the window of time when they are good (ie prior to chivalry) is kinda short, and while it is quite possible to to a bit of conquering with them (they are totally sick against opponents that doesn't have either iron or fundamentalism, or havn't had the cash to upgrade). The problem is that compared to knigths they are kinda costineffective. doing the changes you propose would lessen the power of the unit even more..

[badams52]

I always just thought the med inf was in line only so that the swordsmen you build in the early game are no longer useless by the time of the late game. Whether they're effective attckers in their own era is not as important as having the swordsmen become useful in later stages.

[Fosse]

I agree with badam. This mod shouldn't be interested in giving every attacking unit an "era" that it's the most effective. Medeival infantry aren't as good as knights, adn they shouldn't have to be.

I think they already fit their niche perfectly.

[Theseus]

Straying too far...

Please, no changes for change's sake.

It's OK if the AU Mod settles down into a "standard" version, short of addressing new issues introduced in patches and new releases.

I think we are at the point where significant unit changes should only come after testing, such as AU206.

[Dominae]

Playing AU206 I noticed that Catapults upgrade to Artillery, skipping Cannons. I assume this is a mistake...


Dominae

[alexman]

Thanks for finding it. It was an accident, of course.

[Dominae]

Let's just say 'finding' is not right word', because I was not really "looking". It just sort of came up and slapped me across the face...So I built 4 Cavalry Armies to quell my anger. And so they did.

I assume the switch was made when fiddling with the Koreans, correct?


Dominae

[alexman]

Correct. By accident I changed the Catapult (in addition to the Cannon) to upgrade to Hwach'a. Don't ask me how...

1.17 will fix it.

In addition, it will put Musketeers back to stock.

I still like the removal of Med. infantry for the Celts. It just seems more natural, but I realize it's a change that does not directly fall into any of the mod's goals.

Anything else?

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Dominae
So I built 4 Cavalry Armies to quell my anger. And so they did.

I feel better too.

[player1]

As it's pointed out here, 50 cost Keshik can become too much powerful, since he'll be +40% more cost effective at attack, and barely, 6.7% less effective at defense then Knight. These benefits alone would make a good UU, without need of further boosts, like better movement at Mountains and Hills.
But since such change (removing mountain movement) would remove some Keshik flavor, maybe something else need to be done.

What about giving them defense of 3, with price of 60?

Or even better, give them blitz attack with original cost of 60 instead? (blitz is in flavor with quick rushes with mounted archers)


Also, one thing with the Elephants.
How would they work, if movement bonus in Jungles is removed and cost reduced to 60 shields?
(like in Beta Tester MOD)
Is it out of flavor (Elephants are supposed to be expensive), or out of balance?

[nbarclay]

I view major rebalancing of UUs as out of scope for the AU mod. A little tinkering around the edges like letting Keshiks get their movement bonus on hills too or letting elephants move through jungle quickly doesn't bother me. And I was willing to consider much more drastic changes to the Gallic Swordsman when people were arguing that he might actually be worse than the unit he replaces. But changing stats or costs around just because players wish civs with weak UUs were more powerful seems like too much of a departure from the stock game for too little reason.

Further, playing a "weak" civ gives players an extra option for testing their abilities if they're interested. It could even serve as a handicapping mechanism in MP if a group of players wanted it to. ("Okay, Aeson, we'll let you in, but only if you play England." )

Edit: Although given Aeson's skills with expansionist civs, the words, "Please don't throw me into that briar patch," come to mind.

Nathan

[player1]

That's why I was suggesting some minor tweaks.
Like Blitz for Keshik (it just goes so well with flavor)

Or cost 60 Elephants as alternative for good Jungle Elephants
(I have no idea which Elephant version is better)


I agree with you that defense 3 Keshik would be just out-of-scope for a AU MOD.

[player1]

It's surely more minor then "bombardment" for Longbowmen.

[Dominae]

Blitz is a very powerful and significantly different ability. This makes it far more "out of flavor" for AU than an added Defense point.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by player1
It's surely more minor then "bombardment" for Longbowmen.

This added ability is significant, but only for the AI. I see this addition as a balancing act between the "improving the AI" and "not changing too much". I think it succeeds, as in 90% of games it does not change human strategy at all (since humans usually attacking, not defending).


Dominae